Internal Striking #2

[Walk the Torque]

I thought I'd raise this question on a separate thread in case the first one gets canned due to............well you know


Instead of discussing the existence of a soft brush-like strike that causes extreme pain or odd sensations in the body; why not have a crack at working out how such a strike could be achieved. By this I mean working on the mechanics, positional set up and timing that would make something like this achievable. This may to some, be nothing more than an interesting exercise, and to others no more than foolishness and pissing up wind in a blind ally, but you never know where such constructive debate might lead.

Anyway, I'd like to share a couple of things that I have noticed about the transference of force from one body to another, and also a question that has been on my mind.

One of the things that I have noticed is that force is passed far more clearly from one body to another when there is a lack of excess tension. Nothing new in that of course; but what I also notice is that the pressure of punch or palm strike that "goes through the target" actually decreases the clarity of force that penetrates into the receiving body.

Now I'm not saying that the force of a strike that "goes through the target" is caused to be any weaker by the resultant pressure, because the combined impact of the flesh, bone and other physical body parts and the kinetic force surely "packs a punch" as it were; but what I am saying is that the quality of the force is totally changed due to the introduction of increased pressure + tension created by the weapon (the fist/arm etc.

This is evident in a push also. When using a wave-like power as found in most internal arts, the transfer of force is issued in a most "lively" and shockingly fast manner when the contact pressure between the pusher and pushed is maintained at around the "four ounces" range. If ten or twenty ounces is applied during the push then the resultant tension tends to cause a "blockage" and slowing of the transference of force.

Having said this, it would seem to follow that, if we were skilled enough to apply our strike with enough contact pressure so that the force could be conducted from one body to another, but not so much force that it would retard the transference of force, we may in fact be doing something similar to the type of strike that Ian sited in the first part of this thread.

The second thing that I have noticed is that when using spiral forces, pushing or striking at a tangent to the target seems to help in arresting the retardation of transfer of force. It is (subjectively) like the difference between firing a ball from a small cannon or sling-shooting it. The latter seems to afford a clearer penetration of the target.

So that is what I have noticed. Now I have a question. What do we think is the least amount of contact pressure would it take to transfer the entire internal force generated by one very skilled person into another? Is it totally outside the bounds of possibility to train oneself to time the impact of their jin to coincide with a light contact pressure of another body in order to transfer the full and unimpeded force of that jin?

[GrahamB]

There is another aspect that your post reminded me of.

If I was lightly brushed a garden fork across my chest then I imagine that would hurt quite a bit. So, if what is being used for a light brush is very hard and dense then pain increases. My teacher's teacher was very good at iron palm, and he remembers that during push hands he would let his fingers brush gently over your ribs all the time, which was incredibly painful.

[Walk the Torque]

Yep, can see that.

[GrahamB]

One of the things that I have noticed is that force is passed far more clearly from one body to another when there is a lack of excess tension. Nothing new in that of course; but what I also notice is that the pressure of punch or palm strike that "goes through the target" actually decreases the clarity of force that penetrates into the receiving body.

That's a very good observation - it matters not if your aim is knocking out a drunken attacker outside the pub on a Friday night, but that's not what we're talking about here. So, with that caveat it could be worth going further down this narrow, but very interesting, avenue....

What you're talking about (to me anyway) is the old addage "you can't use Li, you can't not use Li".

The less Li that you use (raw physical strength) the more "internal power" (Jin) you can deliver into the strike. From my understanding you need to have "built up" enough Jin in the body first to be able to have something to deliver into your strikes once you're not delivering just raw physical strength, but you still need to have some Li in what you are doing - it's internal and external in harmony that is required to deliver such a strike, not just internal (or there would be no movement at all!)

So that is what I have noticed. Now I have a question. What do we think is the least amount of contact pressure would it take to transfer the entire internal force generated by one very skilled person into another? Is it totally outside the bounds of possibility to train oneself to time the impact of their jin to coincide with a light contact pressure of another body in order to transfer the full and unimpeded force of that jin?

Another good set of questions to ask - I believe that if you want to specialise in this area then you can get that physical movement down to the stake where it looks like just a light brush, after A LOT of practice. I'm talking far more practice than is really necessary for hitting people effectively. Serious amounts of practice. And even though it looks like a light brush, or a light contact with the body, there would still need to be enough Li in what's happening to have an effect.

I have done a small amount of training in this area myself. A tiny amount. If you watch the video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-C0yw_8fidM you can see a bottle break at the end. Light palm strike, bottom of bottle blows out. Unfortunately whenever you break anything these days you illicit responses of "fake", "circus tricks" and the like in the same way that yobs make Bruce Lee noises at people trying to practice Tai Chi in a park, except that in this case the cat calling is usually by other martial artists who somehow feel threatened by people doing what they presumably can't. Yes, it's done "for show" (it's in a demo done for charity!) but there's actually something very subtle being displayed - a relatively light palm slap can blow the bottom out of the bottle - how is that possible? (note, unlike all the videos of how to do it on the Internet [by filling bottle with water and banging hard on the top to use air pressure] , our bottles are filled with water and we've got the tops back on, so it's not air pressure - the exact physics of how it works are a mystery to me, but it's a great tool for working out the correct feeling of it working, and gives you reliable, repeatable, consistent feedback, unlike humans - who all react differently when hit).

It's done by what you're talking about in your post Conn - removing physical tension and focussing on increasing the 'quality' of the power used- putting your Yi into the equation, reducing the % of external (Li) and increasing the % of internal (jin).

If you're a real tough guy you can just hit the bottle really hard and the whole thing will shatter, but you can break bones in your hand doing that, and also cut yourself - at the least you'll badly bruise your hand. In contrast what we're looking for here is no damage to the hand, and the bottom of the bottle blown cleanly out - no cracks down the side. Cracks down the side indicate too much "li" in your strike - you need to pull it back a bit until you can get it just right.

The way I'm doing it in that video is not amazingly good either - I'm on the right, my arm takes a big looping circle - if I practice more I should be able to make that circle smaller so that it looks like you just hold your hand over the bottle then drop it, so it only travels a few inches. More like my friend is doing it, except he's maybe being a little bit more 'physical' than me. Doing it in front of an audience I wanted to do it in a way I knew would work first time, rather than making it even more difficult for myself. It took a lot of practice to build up to the point where I felt confident I could make it work each time - like everything in internal martial arts, it's a feeling. If you want to reproduce that feeling consistently you have to practice it a hell of a lot. Of course, with limited training time it was quickly apparent to me that if I spent all my time training that and getting better at it then all the rest of my training suffered. Having to do it in a demo was quite a good motivator for getting good at it, but after the demo I stopped focussing in that area. I imagine that somebody who has all the time in the world to focuss in that area could end up achieving something very special, maybe even hitting people with tremendous force with what looks like a light tap of the fingers

[Ian]

I thought I'd raise this question on a separate thread in case the first one gets canned due to............well you know


Instead of discussing the existence of a soft brush-like strike that causes extreme pain or odd sensations in the body; why not have a crack at working out how such a strike could be achieved. By this I mean working on the mechanics, positional set up and timing that would make something like this achievable. This may to some, be nothing more than an interesting exercise, and to others no more than foolishness and pissing up wind in a blind ally, but you never know where such constructive debate might lead.

"what some obtain through diligence and hard work might seem mystical to those who dont have the same experience..."
"the knower does not talk, the talker does not know"

Fn no-skill-having amateur

but what I also notice is that the pressure of punch or palm strike that "goes through the target" actually decreases the clarity of force that penetrates into the receiving body.

I think I raised a similar observation about a week ago about punching through vs punching in. Nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The second thing that I have noticed is that when using spiral forces, pushing or striking at a tangent to the target seems to help in arresting the retardation of transfer of force. It is (subjectively) like the difference between firing a ball from a small cannon or sling-shooting it. The latter seems to afford a clearer penetration of the target.

As in punching at an angle to the struck surface instead of head on? Not quite sure what you're saying.

[klonk]

One of the things that I have noticed is that force is passed far more clearly from one body to another when there is a lack of excess tension.

Lately I have been wondering if this is related, at all, to the principle of the dead blow hammer.

http://www.nuplacorp.com/products/strik ... fault.html

All tool heads feature shot-loaded interior cavities which are encased within a tough injection molded polymer outer jacket. When the hammer is struck, the free flowing inner shot concentrates striking power and increases driving force by 40%. No rebound bounce upon impact transfers full energy of the blow to the object being struck. Smart Hammer Technology virtually eliminates impact vibration, decreases user fatigue and thereby increases efficiency.

When you whack something with one of these shot-filled hammers, there is minimal rebound from what you hit, and it seems to me the business with the shot traveling forward for a moment after the hammer stops is something like the quality of a relaxed punch. You might say this is a sung hammer.

[Walk the Torque]

[quote="GrahamB"]
The less Li that you use (raw physical strength) the more "internal power" (Jin) you can deliver into the strike. From my understanding you need to have "built up" enough Jin in the body first to be able to have something to deliver into your strikes once you're not delivering just raw physical strength, but you still need to have some Li in what you are doing - it's internal and external in harmony that is required to deliver such a strike, not just internal (or there would be no movement at all!)[quote]

Cool, we are on the same page then. I particularly like your comment on "building up Jin". I have been working on this for a while now, and it really makes difference to the wallop one is packing. It is the equivalent to taking a run-up to the strike but without running up. I have been seriously working on doing this in all movements continually generating jin during form,push hands,rou shou and sparring. It has made an enormous difference to my game.

[quote="GrahamB"]
Another good set of questions to ask - I believe that if you want to specialise in this area then you can get that physical movement down to the stake where it looks like just a light brush, after A LOT of practice. I'm talking far more practice than is really necessary for hitting people effectively. Serious amounts of practice. And even though it looks like a light brush, or a light contact with the body, there would still need to be enough Li in what's happening to have an effect.[quote]

Well I don't have a problem with this use of Li; I am just interested in what we can get it down to. I mean what is the base requirement to effectively transfer your force into another body?

[quote="GrahamB"]
It's done by what you're talking about in your post Conn - removing physical tension and focusing on increasing the 'quality' of the power used- putting your Yi into the equation, reducing the % of external (Li) and increasing the % of internal (jin).[quote]

To add to what you have stated here; I have been working with rolling the "heaviness" around my body and oscillating it from head to toe so to speak, and slowly reducing the external frame of my body to throw it out, using carefully chosen fulcrums (two thirds up the forearm, two thirds down the thigh and of course dantein) when striking/pushing. The issuing part of the action is effectively shortening the arc of the force, and so condensing it somewhat. The result is that more Li is spent on articulating than forward thrust.


Thank you for post and sharing your demo with us. I fully appreciate your decision to focus on other areas. Just take care when punching on down at your local

[Walk the Torque]

but what I also notice is that the pressure of punch or palm strike that "goes through the target" actually decreases the clarity of force that penetrates into the receiving body.

I think I raised a similar observation about a week ago about punching through vs punching in. Nice to hear your thoughts on the matter.

The second thing that I have noticed is that when using spiral forces, pushing or striking at a tangent to the target seems to help in arresting the retardation of transfer of force. It is (subjectively) like the difference between firing a ball from a small cannon or sling-shooting it. The latter seems to afford a clearer penetration of the target.

As in punching at an angle to the struck surface instead of head on? Not quite sure what you're saying.

Re the contact pressure; I also think there is an argument for not sinking too much when striking as in creates excess tension in the legs due to much contact pressure with the ground. In fact if the earth is trodden on in a delicate manner or rubbed (with slight friction) this can assist in adding to the ascending force of your jin.

Re striking/pushing at a tangent. I think the key thing here is using spiral force; which affords us a continual outgoing force that can be transferred while "rolling/shaving/friction-ing" the struck surface, because the force can be transferred at an angle. Think of a cog; the force exerted from the cog is being directed at a tangent to the centre of the cog due to its turning. Similar thing with a spiral strike.

[Walk the Torque]

Lately I have been wondering if this is related, at all, to the principle of the dead blow hammer.

Yes, I think this has a lot to do with it. There's something in the idea of the water and not the hose. We just need to become better plumbers and get better control of the water pressure.

All tool heads feature shot-loaded interior cavities which are encased within a tough injection molded polymer outer jacket. When the hammer is struck, the free flowing inner shot concentrates striking power and increases driving force by 40%. No rebound bounce upon impact transfers full energy of the blow to the object being struck. Smart Hammer Technology virtually eliminates impact vibration, decreases user fatigue and thereby increases efficiency.

[klonk]

The Qi Xing Gan, or Seven Star Staff/Stick of baguazhang, traditionally was a hollowed-out bamboo pole partially filled with mercury, used for point striking. The mercury would flow to the end of the pole contacting the opponent, adding momentum to the strike.

Waddya know!? That weapon duplicates the principle of the dead blow hammer.

The Qi will behave like mercury - once you strike with the hand it immediately flows from out of Dantian, waist, and reaches the hand. The hand will be felt by the opponent as very heavy. Only at this moment you can start learning Bagua techniques and movements.

And here we would seem to have a direct reference to the mechanical principle involved, in explaining striking with the hand. Good eye, Tom, to pick up on all that!

[Walk the Torque]

Yes thanks for that Tom.

There is however a bit of ambiguity to some of the statements in this interview. When Ma Chuangxu says initially " MR.MA: No, you should not think about Qi when you practice. Small Heavenly Circle will open naturally, not intentionally, when your Neigong reaches this level. However your practice has to be supervised by a competent teacher". Then soon after states "No, you have to open the Large Heavenly Circle so that Qi can reach your hands. This also takes time and you have to think first - use Intent (Yi) - to drive Qi to the hands. Once Qi follows your Intent, the next step is to be able to move Qi without any conscious effort.

I have seen many such like and seemingly contradictory statements from high level practitioners of these arts. It is most likely just a stages of progress thing, but it can be a bit confusing sometimes

Anyway, Thanks again Tom. The way this principle was explained to me was like a tea pot being drawn across a surface, and then brought to an abrupt stop; where the tea inside slushes against the side of the pot.

[Bao]

Small Heavenly Circle will open naturally, not intentionally, when your Neigong reaches this level. However your practice has to be supervised by a competent teacher". Then soon after states "No, you have to open the Large Heavenly Circle so that Qi can reach your hands. This also takes time and you have to think first - use Intent (Yi) - to drive Qi to the hands. Once Qi follows your Intent, the next step is to be able to move Qi without any conscious effort.

I don't like this "terminology" - Large and small heavenly circulation describes something in a very theoretical way - two stages in a development that is continous. You can not see exactly from one day to another "suprise - now I know small heavenly circulation" and then another day suddenly realize "wow, now i know large heavenly circulation". The stages of development, as any other kind of development goes gradually and the stages goes into another, so there are no clear cuts from one to another. And frankly, different teachers interprete the "terms" and meaning of them quite differently.

[yusuf]

hey all

Ok. If we try and break this down into just physical stuff, are you talking about the structure hitting followed by a wave momentum?

peace

yusuf

[GrahamB]

hey all

Ok. If we try and break this down into just physical stuff, are you talking about the structure hitting followed by a wave momentum?

peace

yusuf

I'm not, but I think I'm ploughing my own lonely furrow, as usual

[Walk the Torque]

hey all

Ok. If we try and break this down into just physical stuff, are you talking about the structure hitting followed by a wave momentum?

peace

yusuf

I'm not, but I think I'm ploughing my own lonely furrow, as usual

What ever gives you that idea Graham?

Anyway Yusuf, one question I presented was what is the least amount of contact pressure it would take to transfer your generated jin from your body to anothers? For me this implies that even if structure is used to conduct said jin, the actually contact pressure would, being SO LIGHT (remember we are talking about a light brush here) that it would negate the presupposition that the "physical" material of flesh, bones and various liquids in the body were having any significant impact on the target body. In short, it is the purest or closest to purest use of internal force that would be causing the damage and not the impact of the structure that is conducting it.

So in answer to your question Yusuf, it is not that the structure is "hitting" so to speak; the structure may "carry" the energy ( jin,wave of momentum, kinetic energy or internal force) and be used to transfer it, but the physical "Newtonian" impact is not taking place here. There is no knocking going on here; there is only the contact pressure required to transfer the force of that jin. Now how much pressure do we think it would take to pass that force on from one body to another?

Here is a little game you can play. Try (using whole body power/technique) to push yourself off a wall. You can let yourself be moved backwards away from the wall and observe how much contact pressure your hands had with the wall. Then try to reduce the amount of contact pressure against the wall. With a little practice you may find that it is possible to project yourself quite some distance off the wall with the lightest of contact pressure against the wall. This sort of "game" presupposes your ability to generate force from your centre of course.

In my experience the quality of the force rebounding back at you from the wall becomes more lively, light and energetically faster commensurate with the diminishing contact pressure.