the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

I use as an image the bow of a ship that dives/crushes into the opponent's dantian. You strike to deflect a punch with the least angle and the least force enough to deflect it. You can strike back only when his/her force has ended. IME it's not possible to connect at full speed. If experienced, he'll change as soon as he feels being deflected. It's the persistence of his attack while being deflected that gives you the window of opportunity to connect fully. Hope my wording is correct.

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DeusTrismegistus wrote: Since Ma Jiangbai is himself moving little his body has little kenetic energy from motion. The amount fo power displayed cannot be explained by purely analyzing Ma's mass and velocity in relation to his opponent, his center may move an inch or two while he projects the other guy 3 ft.

IMO you have to analyze the system "Ma Jiangbao + opponent" and not the bodies individually. As a Taiji-system is formed due to Ma's adherence, you have to focus on the center of mass of the system, not on the individuals, that swings in a line back and forth from one dantian to the other. So Ma is moving as much as his opponent, regarding that center of mass of the system... though he only knows where it is!

klonk wrote:Good! I have long thought, though, that the simplest way to borrow force is to strike into your opponent's advance, would you agree? So that the vectors butt head-on.

Agree! The definition of "borrow force" is opposite between the striking and throwing. You want to

- strike when your opponent moves in toward you (head on collusion).
- push (throw) when your opponent moves away from you (rear end collusion).

DeusTrismegistus wrote:With this theoretical light touch strike, what speed are we talking about at delivery? Do we mean simply lightly touching while barely moving or moving quickly but striking lightly?

The purpose of "light touch strike" is to build a bridge. If you

- use too much force, you may bounce your bridge away.
- move too slow, you may allow your opponent to apply Tinjin on you.
- move too fast, you may not give your opponent enough time to response and that defeat the purpose of bridge building.

In this video Ma Jiangbao pushes this guy around a lot, causing large displacements, with little motion. His mass is not moving much, yet he is producing a lot of power.


Since Ma Jiangbai is himself moving little his body has little kenetic energy from motion. The amount fo power displayed cannot be explained by purely analyzing Ma's mass and velocity in relation to his opponent, his center may move an inch or two while he projects the other guy 3 ft.

And this demo ..... IS Pure CRAP! nothing but a young dude paying homage to a respected master up in his advanced age! Nothing more....nothing less! I probably would have done the same if placed in a similar situation. In a real fight the guy probably would have hammered Ma even if he had little or no skill. Youth has its privileges! (size and strength included.......)

Ever wonder why Ma jianbao never moved backward?

EVER?

Because they guy wasn't coming at him! i.e.....Wasn't committed to trying! That's why.....

I fail to see any relevance is this demonstration or others like this.....

Ba-men wrote:this demo .

When I reach to my old age, I won't be satisfied with my ability only to be able to "push".

ppscat wrote:Your whole frame should move at your opponent's speed. If fully connected at same speed & aceleration, both bodies becomes one single cohesive unit (the idea of Taiji), and so any changed induced on it has the double the mass to produce force F= a (m1 + m2).

Easy to say, many decades to master it...

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I really like this idea ppscat, and I had thought about something similar a while ago regarding leverage and the furthest point away from the "load" being lifted.

DeusTrismegistus wrote:With this theoretical light touch strike, what speed are we talking about at delivery? Do we mean simply lightly touching while barely moving or moving quickly but striking lightly?

This is a good question. I would also ask how much distance is being covered during this striking action. I envisage an internal strike as being that the outside of the body (that which can be observed) moves very little; but the force inside is moving very fast. Just like the barrel of a gun appears to move very little, while the bullet is moving very fast. This implies that the strike can be done from a short distance; and even though Ian (in the original thread) explicitly stated that he was not asking about "short power", maybe the better we get at short power it turns into a sort of "impulse" that is on a more subtle level. If we were talking about just moving quickly and striking with a light touch, I think it could be learnt more easily.

What I'm thinking of is a very fine quality of force directed to specific areas of the body and requiring (that is that lightness is a prerequisite) of making them work.

If I think of how I used to strike say, twenty years ago, and how I strike now, they are two totally different things. I'm wondering if this progression will lead to strikes approaching this ability. Certainly there are signs that this sort of thing is not totally out of the question.

klonk wrote:

DeusTrismegistus wrote:You can change the efficiency of the blow with a relaxed body frame. If we believe the hammer manufacturer I cited above, the potential increase in impact is 40%. That's not magic power but we will take it. It is all we can get, for the power will never exceed what is provided by the mass and speed we bring to the problem.
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There is also the quantity of time that the weapon or delivery system that transfers the power to be considered. If the shorter time spent in contact with the target, the greater the shocking force. But that is another story.

Walk the Torque wrote:

klonk wrote:

DeusTrismegistus wrote:You can change the efficiency of the blow with a relaxed body frame. If we believe the hammer manufacturer I cited above, the potential increase in impact is 40%. That's not magic power but we will take it. It is all we can get, for the power will never exceed what is provided by the mass and speed we bring to the problem.
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There is also the quantity of time that the weapon or delivery system that transfers the power to be considered. If the shorter time spent in contact with the target, the greater the shocking force. But that is another story.

Okay. But doesn't that loop back into the question of the speed of the blow? Speed has to do with how much energy is dumped on the target in x amount of time. I think the reason some striking arts teach you to snap back the blow is to encourage you to think in terms of transferring all the power in an instant.

Actually the fist can be left in contact with the target, if it has expended all its energy in the same brief time frame, and that will result in no loss of power delivered. I would point to the Newton's Cradle pendulum above. But a good reason to get used to withdrawing your blows is to retrieve the arm for defensive use (getting back to a guard position).

All this stuff is weirdly interrelated, but I think we've identified some important areas to look at:

• The relaxed (sung) body framework
• Use of whole-body motion
• Accurately targeting vital points
• Thinking in terms of both bodies: your mass and the opponent's mass (borrowing force)
• Motion must be transfered to the target in the minimum time (the "a" in F = ma)

None of this adds up to magic, but maybe the better you get at doing it, the more like magic it looks.
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Walk the Torque wrote: I would also ask how much distance is being covered during this striking action. I envisage an internal strike as being that the outside of the body moves very little; but the force inside is moving very fast. Just like the barrel of a gun appears to move very little, while the bullet is moving very fast. This implies that the strike can be done from a short distance; and even though Ian (in the original thread) explicitly stated that he was not asking about "short power", maybe the better we get at short power it turns into a sort of "impulse" that is on a more subtle level. If we were talking about just moving quickly and striking with a light touch, I think it could be learnt more easily.

Hi Walk the Torque, I would focus not on the distance to strike the opponent but one step before, while charging the elastics on your frame. You can have a large elastic compression (or a series o small ones) and then a short sudden burst of force. Combine this with the ability to blend your mass with your opponent, and then you could have a great force delivery with little outward (final) movement.

Then, it should also be considered the amplification/reduction of the wave at the hips-waist. Finally, the recoiling too, as a quicker one is connected too a concentrated and deep impact like Tsi, while a longer one to a broader and more superficial like An.

Ba-men wrote:And this demo ..... IS Pure CRAP! nothing but a young dude paying homage to a respected master up in his advanced age! Nothing more....nothing less! I probably would have done the same if placed in a similar situation. In a real fight the guy probably would have hammered Ma even if he had little or no skill. Youth has its privileges! (size and strength included.......)

Ever wonder why Ma jianbao never moved backward?

EVER?

Because they guy wasn't coming at him! i.e.....Wasn't committed to trying! That's why.....

I fail to see any relevance is this demonstration or others like this.....

Your characteriszation ..... IS Pure CRAP! LOL
First, this isn't a demo (it also isn't fight so neither of them attepts to "hammer" the other one ). Second, this is fixed step, so why would Ma take a step backwards? His listening skills are superior to his partner's so he simply doesn't have to. Third, Mas' Tuishou videos are actually positive examples of how skill can look like without these elements of giving face or outright fakery.
You don't understand what you see, because you have no clue about Wu style's neutralization.

ppscat wrote:

Walk the Torque wrote: I would also ask how much distance is being covered during this striking action. I envisage an internal strike as being that the outside of the body moves very little; but the force inside is moving very fast. Just like the barrel of a gun appears to move very little, while the bullet is moving very fast. This implies that the strike can be done from a short distance; and even though Ian (in the original thread) explicitly stated that he was not asking about "short power", maybe the better we get at short power it turns into a sort of "impulse" that is on a more subtle level. If we were talking about just moving quickly and striking with a light touch, I think it could be learnt more easily.

Hi Walk the Torque, I would focus not on the distance to strike the opponent but one step before, while charging the elastics on your frame. You can have a large elastic compression (or a series o small ones) and then a short sudden burst of force. Combine this with the ability to blend your mass with your opponent, and then you could have a great force delivery with little outward (final) movement.

Then, it should also be considered the amplification/reduction of the wave at the hips-waist. Finally, the recoiling too, as a quicker one is connected too a concentrated and deep impact like Tsi, while a longer one to a broader and more superficial like An.

Best,
Pablo

Well this is excactly what I meant about considering the distance; and, even though Klonk did'nt say this when posting the footage of Newton's cradel, I can see how the middle ball could be seen as the hand of a "light touch" master. Like you say the skill is in the step before contact.

http://vimeo.com/96701

Does the crane with wrecking ball have anything to show us about relaxed striking?

Ba-men wrote:And this demo ..... IS Pure CRAP! nothing but a young dude paying homage to a respected master up in his advanced age!

Actually I thought that was one of the better push hands clips I've seen - you can see the young dude is really trying to "get him". I thought Ma made a good job of effortlessly dealing with him.

Remember, it's just push hands, not a fight...

GrahamB wrote:

Ba-men wrote:And this demo ..... IS Pure CRAP! nothing but a young dude paying homage to a respected master up in his advanced age!

Actually I thought that was one of the better push hands clips I've seen - you can see the young dude is really trying to "get him". I thought Ma made a good job of effortlessly dealing with him.

Remember, it's just push hands, not a fight...

Grahamb and Cdobe. I agree with both of you! Nicely put.

C'mon Ba-men, like they say, that's a push hands exchange and not a free fight as I'm sure you know. Within the 'rules' of fixed step push hands Ma Jiang Bao shows his skills and class very clearly here.

Such free style Push hands exchanges with 'rules' and 'constraints' are designed to hone and develop skills you would use in a 'free fight'.