Zhan Zhuang as Fight Training

[Walk the Torque]

Diagnostic metaphors are visual abstract images that you let your mind create to represent whatever it is that's to be evaluated....health, pain, posture, a given technique, etc. It's used in conjunction with submodalities from NLP to identify how you represent progress, healing, etc.

This sounds similar to techniques found in psychosynthesis, that can also be used to train new abilities, and resolve issues by altering the contextual experience. Simple but effective.

[Walk the Torque]

All this talk of standing has rubbed off on me. I have started up again after a substantial break. I do it with a weighted vest a majority to the time. I have started to remember chi gung exercises that I use to "place inside" the standing practice; such as expanding and contracting, oscillating waves, internalizing spirals, extending awareness, circulating energy and returning to emptiness. I then try to combine all the above.

I had forgotten how easy it makes the rest of my day. I guess its a meditation thing.

As to cerebus's question. I would say that as long as your breathing is OK during heavy sparring sessions, I don't think there would be anything wrong with giving it a try. You don't seem to be without experience; so if you feel you have enough under your belt i'd say give it a try. From my experience standing practice bestows quantum leaps in skill. I'm not sure what the cap is but It sure is worth exploring.

I would be interested to see how you get on.

[cerebus]

Thanks everyone. Ideally, I'd like to train at this local boxing/ Thai boxing gym, just to have sparring partners who I wouldn't feel hesitant about letting loose on. Unfortunately I can't afford it right now.

As for my own experiences, the last competitive fights I was in, I was mostly trying to experiment with maintaining my Hsing-I structure in the heat of battle. As a result, I found that I was too rigid in my mindset and concentrated solely on aggressive attack, not bothering much with defense.

Lately I've been working on my Tai Chi and concentrating mostly on being as relaxed and mobile as I can be while sparring. I like this much better, and the effectiveness seems to be very good as well.

So anyway, I'm contemplating just working my Tai Chi form and my Zhan Zhuang every day and maybe testing things out in combat around the end of next month. The East Bay Rats Motorcycle Club is having one of its annual full-contact fightclubs on June 20th. Just costs a $20 fee to enter, and you can fight anyone near your weight division (though this can be flexible), including bikers, brawlers, boxers and blackbelts.

Haven't made any definite decisions yet, but I think it would be cool if I could do this and actually win using my soft, relaxed Tai Chi training...

[D_Glenn]

Excerpt from my teacher's article:

"...狮形掌取象乾卦，故练此桩法时要上下内外一气。

习练狮形桩可健脑益智，强筋壮骨，通经活络，可长气、长力，提高击打与抗击能力，改善身体的触感（听力），为转、打、换打好基础。



一、 预备式

习练者面南背北，两脚并拢站立，双手自然垂于身体两侧，平心静气，全身放松，精神集中。..."

...In the lion shape posture representing the qian trigram [every trigram has it's main standing (zhan zhuang) posture], when standing the top and bottom, inside and outside must be one connected. This standing practice is used for invigorating the brain and increasing wisdom, strengthening muscle and bone, opening up and stimulating flow through the fascia, developing the qi, developing the li, increasing striking and attacking ability while also increasing the ability to resist and defend against strikes, improving the whole body's ability to sense touch and feel or 'ting li' listening ability. Circle walking, striking, changing while striking are all built upon the foundation of standing (zhan zhuang).

1- to prepare to practice face the south with the back facing north, both feet are together, the hands hang naturally down to the sides, calm the mind and quiet the qi, the whole body should be relaxed, the essence (jing) and spirit (shen) need to be as one...



.

[Strange]

as to zz is fight ability or to further strengthen and develop fight ability.... i am not sure, but for example...
in bengquan or simple punching, there is a common mistake for even trained intermediate level fighters, that is hand/punch move to far forward, then upper pull body and disconnect the waist from the lower waist and kua. this result in loss of external alignment and maybe even off balance. also it is difficult to get into the next movement as the body is trying to recover alignment.

essentially becoming hand leading legs; everything going opposite and haywire.

i find that with zz, it solves this and many other forms of problem that is associated with "problems" that fighters face.
so what zz is i leave it to those who are interested to further discuss; but for me there is no doubt that it is a central part of IMA practice.

no doubt, yq need to be discussed as a whole before we talk of its real life efficacy; but the problem is many practitioners still use the attitude of other ma to view yq. what i mean to say is while there are many other exercises in yq; most if not all required a real solid zz foundation. if one does not have this other forms of yq exercise mainly just like simplistic empty movement.

with respect, other western type concepts on the brain and linguistic programming etc are interesting to know. but understand that understanding these does not mean you understanding what yq is trying to get at. for me this is essentially is moving the progress backwards cos yq does away fixed forms to get directly at the "thing" that is needed. yq "says" you do not need other tools to help you taste "it"; you just do yq and feel it first hand. for me adding other forms of concept to understand fist or yq... etc... feels something like trying to learn chinese by going to a english lit school. get good instructions you trust and just practice.

cheers, S.

[Ian]

Deus,

I'm not interested in going into a huge volume of detail on those topics right now, since I have a Cinco de Mayo thing to go to tonight, but I'll cover them generally.

Lucid dreaming technically happens when you are asleep, not in trance. However, a variation of it where you have even more cognitive awareness and control can be done while in trance. You could say it's a bit like letting your mind wander, only with a specific theme or idea in mind. That technique can be used to explore specific combat scenarios, active imaging practice, etc.

Diagnostic metaphors are visual abstract images that you let your mind create to represent whatever it is that's to be evaluated....health, pain, posture, a given technique, etc. It's used in conjunction with submodalities from NLP to identify how you represent progress, healing, etc.

The time perception dilation is very useful in learning to calm the mind and amplify effortless focus. Also very useful for diagnosing and active imaging.

I don't remember ever seeing you writing about these topics. I did a search and couldn't find anything. You asked "what does what mean?" Basically, I understand what most of the words mean in isolation, but don't understand how they can be applied to zz.

"self-hypnosis ,lucid dreaming, diagnostic metaphor, time perception dilation"

The explanations above give me a bit more of an idea, but I'm still interested in specifics - how, and for what.

If you don't want to go into any great detail, are there any books or articles you could recommend?

[Chris McKinley]

Ian,

RE: "I don't remember ever seeing you writing about these topics. I did a search and couldn't find anything.". Sorry you couldn't find anything. I've been covering this kinda stuff to varying degrees for quite a few years....maybe it's all pre-schism and didn't survive the move or something. Anyway, the things I mentioned can be applied to zhan zhuang by practicing self-hypnosis and using that trance as a playground for whatever else you're wanting to do. I'm schooled in the Ericksonian method mostly, so that's how I usually approach things. You might start by looking into an introduction to that method if this kinda thing interests you. I apply time distortions to give me the perception of either feeling like my regular standing is going by quickly, or conversely that I've got plenty of time to spend in a particular mental scenario or technique.

I've used these methods and a few others to really dig deep into what constitutes internal mechanics, and that really jumped my abilities considerably, especially when I first started doing it consistently. I also use it to do energy diagnosis as well as micro-proprioceptive work for diagnosing minor illness, correcting posture, micro-corrections in alignment....all kinds of goodies.

I've used the active imaging to really explore and shore up specific weaknesses combatively, especially with weapons work. The time distortion stuff I've also linked to other specific skill sets that are triggered by recognition of imminent danger situations and/or adrenal dumps. Weird, wild schtuff.

[Ian]

Cheers. I will have a read and do some research.

[Sprint]

So anyway, I'm contemplating just working my Tai Chi form and my Zhan Zhuang every day and maybe testing things out in combat around the end of next month. The East Bay Rats Motorcycle Club is having one of its annual full-contact fightclubs on June 20th. Just costs a $20 fee to enter, and you can fight anyone near your weight division (though this can be flexible), including bikers, brawlers, boxers and blackbelts.

Haven't made any definite decisions yet, but I think it would be cool if I could do this and actually win using my soft, relaxed Tai Chi training...

My advice is don't do it. Unless you are actively sparring/fighting against resistance you are puting yourself at a serious disadvantage. Even in yiquan the real development of applied skill comes from the free fighting. What you learn from zhan zhuang, shili etc must be pressure tested and thereby refined by actual fighting. Zhan zhuang is part of an integrated whole - at least as far as yiquan is concerned. It has already been explained that what WXZ was talking about was the whole system of yiquan.

What is it you hope to achieve? Winning in these circumstances (no real contact training) does not prove much. It only shows that your opponents were even less well prepared than you.

If you invented a bullet proof vest would your first test of it be to actually wear it and have someone shoot you?

[johnwang]

maybe testing things out in combat around the end of next month.

Old Chinese saying said, "If you don't test your skill within 3 days, your hands and legs will no longer be yours."

My advice is don't do it. Unless you are actively sparring/fighting against resistance you are puting yourself at a serious disadvantage. Even in yiquan the real development of applied skill comes from the free fighting. What you learn from zhan zhuang, shili etc must be pressure tested and thereby refined by actual fighting. Zhan zhuang is part of an integrated whole - at least as far as yiquan is concerned. It has already been explained that what WXZ was talking about was the whole system of yiquan.

Agree 100% there.

CMA training method are already behind the MMA training method in general. We will need to move forward fast and we can't afford to move backward. One yiquan master once told me that most of the CMA masters spent too much training in "how to Fajin in the thin air" and not enough training in "how to create a chance and Fajin on a live human being". I do hope we can realize this problem and correct it in our generation.

We will need to evolve PH forward into "kick, punch, lock, throw, follow on strike integration". We just can't afford to evolve PH backward into "solo ZZ"

[JusticeZero]

Right. Heck, I think at this point, -my- style is getting more props for stepping up to the plate in MMA - not that long ago, someone from a Cap school scored a 20 second, one hit KO in a match with one of our signature kicks. Wasn't built on the right structure, but that might pop up soon enough... pretty good for a bunch of "noncontact breakdance-fighters". what've you guys got brewing up to compare?

[cerebus]

Well, it's not like I have no prior fighting experience. I've been sparring and competing in full-contact fighting since 1983, both in the US and in Europe, so I wouldn't be going into the ring clueless with only Zhan Zhuang practice...

[bigphatwong]

So anyway, I'm contemplating just working my Tai Chi form and my Zhan Zhuang every day and maybe testing things out in combat around the end of next month. The East Bay Rats Motorcycle Club is having one of its annual full-contact fightclubs on June 20th. Just costs a $20 fee to enter, and you can fight anyone near your weight division (though this can be flexible), including bikers, brawlers, boxers and blackbelts.

Haven't made any definite decisions yet, but I think it would be cool if I could do this and actually win using my soft, relaxed Tai Chi training...

Right on Troy, hope that works out better for you. Just use Cloud Hands and break something.

[Juan]

The East Bay Rats Motorcycle Club is having one of its annual full-contact fightclubs on June 20th. Just costs a $20 fee to enter, and you can fight anyone near your weight division (though this can be flexible), including bikers, brawlers, boxers and blackbelts.

Haven't made any definite decisions yet, but I think it would be cool if I could do this and actually win using my soft, relaxed Tai Chi training...

Wow dude, that's fucking hard core! Good luck with that if you decide to enter. Please have someone video tape it so we can see it, it would be really interesting.

[cerebus]

What is it you hope to achieve? Winning in these circumstances (no real contact training) does not prove much. It only shows that your opponents were even less well prepared than you.
If you invented a bullet proof vest would your first test of it be to actually wear it and have someone shoot you?

LOL! Actually winning in ANY circumstance only shows that your opponent was less well prepared than you. The more prepared fighter usually wins, unless his opponent gets in a lucky shot. The question is, does my 26 years of experience in full contact fighting combined with Zhan Zhuang and Tai Chi training make me better prepared than my opponent?

And unless I'm fighting someone who is strong enough to just go around killing people with a single punch, the bulletproof vest analogy really doesn't work in this case. Might I lose? Sure. Might I totally get my ass kicked? Yup, I might! But will I die? There is such a chance in any contact sport, but since I'm well able to handle myself in a fight, it isn't very likely...