the business side of things...

[fuga]

I don't think it is a horrible article for quality martial arts schools.

It's not saying compromise your teaching or use sleazy tactics. It's about focusing your business on the needs of your customers. This is pretty standard operating procedure in any business. Know what you have to offer, know your clients needs, and establish a value relationship.

To me the article basically says value your existing customers and create a positive experience for them. It's not saying don't make the client not do the hard work of the art. It's not saying take short cuts.

And just because one trains in a garage or a park or backyard does not mean that you shouldn't pay attention to the customer's experience, family art or not.

Would you not put these tips into practice in a another business, such as selling shoes or running a bagel store? I am really surprised by the reaction of folks to an article that basically says treat your customers like you would treat your mother and have open communications with your customers.

[jjy5016]

I wouldn't say that it was horrible. I just wouldn't recommend some of the things.

Years ago when I was teaching taiji I followed the suggestions of a similar article and actually turned some prospective clients off.

Each school is an entity unto itself and unique in some ways. Business is business. Passion is passion.

It is one's passion that drives him to practice enough to get to the point where he can open a school.

Unfortunately not all of the students that walk through the door have that type of passion. They all pay and want to get something for their money. A school owner has to figure out just how much he has to give them and make them do during the class time to keep them coming back. Too much and they will not appreciate it.
Too little and they think that the class is for pussies. Just like a pizzeria owner would figure out how many pies he can sell at a certain price. Can he sell more if he lowers the price? What about the different toppings he should offer? Should he sell desserts too? Can he raise the price and still sell the same amount of pies? What can he do to make everyone that passes by his pizzeria think that they have to have it?

Substitute your class and what you offer in the above situations.

[bailewen]

Substitute your class and what you offer in the above situations.

A school owner has to figure out just how much he has to give them and make them do during the class time to keep them coming back. Too much and they will not appreciate it.
Too little and they think that the class is for pussies.

Absolutely. That's why you need to tailor the training to the student.

Just like a pizzeria owner would figure out how many pies he can sell at a certain price.

I don't think it's really like that because you can and should teach more or less to different students. People have different learning and training needs and more importantly, martial arts students also give something back in return. Hungry pizza eaters don't.

Can he sell more if he lowers the price?

Pricing is always going to be an important consideration for martial arts instruction.

What about the different toppings he should offer? Should he sell desserts too?

I think the analog here is curriculum. Maybe the pizza analogy is better than I thought. It certainly applies here.

Can he raise the price and still sell the same amount of pies?

That's pricing again. Always an issue.

What can he do to make everyone that passes by his pizzeria think that they have to have it?

Marketing and advertising can not be ignored.

All in all the same rules seem to apply.

[bailewen]

1. Keep your energy in tune with your client(s) at all times

what's that supposed to mean?

I take that to mean that if your client comes in down in the dumps, then you don't try to shower them with peppy exercises. You work with them on things that will mesh with their "energy". If it's a gym, then maybe lighten up the weights and focus on the reps instead. Don't do aerobics, but steady stair step exercises, maybe. If the client's mood starts to pick up because of the exercising, then move on to more peppy or aerobic, fun, stuff.[/quote]

It could mean something like that but that's just one possible example. How about if your client/student is seriously pissed off at the world and what he really needs is to let off steam? Maybe lots of pad work or a couple hundred round kicks on the heavy bag is what he wants. Maybe is means being sensitive to wether the student is receptive to getting a little theory in today or would rather just shut up and train. If you aren't sensitive to that sort of thing, your are just shooting yourself in the foot. This is not just good business, it's also good teaching.

...what is great customer service from a MA school?

Or a bit more seriously, good CS can be making extra time during off days for people to come in and work on forms, upcoming tests, etc. Keeping the costs for gear down as much as possible to help with client's costs. Refunding a seminar fee if someone can't make it, hated it, etc.

Those are good examples but I'd also say things like simple professionalism. A friendly greeting at the door. A warm hearted goodbye and "see you next time" when people leave. A little sensitive probing when people don't show up for a while and some sort of indication of concern that "everything's alright". Making sure you notice as early as possible when people are maybe not enjoying training. That doens't mean all smiles and puppy love. Maybe rather than "enjoyment" I should be saying "satisfaction". I think it's more important that training be satisfying than fun.

[shawnsegler]

I don't know man. ICMA is kind of it's own thing. I don't know if you can work that analogy all the way.

If you've gone beyond the initial learning phase you need to have an extreme amount of trust in your teacher. You are giving them access to your body and how you train will affect you deeply.

You've got to be able to know when it's appropriate to cross those boundaries and when not to.

Like for most businesses (and this happens a lot now) when you go to the register and the first thing they say is like "phone number" or "zip code" it turns me right the hell off. They are gathering marketing info off of me like they are entitled to it and I owe them. A number of things like that would turn me right off from a martial arts teacher...In my mind that is a betrayal of trust...I feel used.

On the other hand though, much like with chinese medicine I'm a whole individual and a good ICMA teacher is going to take my whole situation under advisement when training me. Like by prescription and I wouldn't expect any less from someone who I was trusting to help make serious changes with my body and mentality.

Anyway, I guess I just think it's it's own thing. Making analogies from other things is really innapropriate from the get go in my opinion. You can look to this sort of thing for ideas, but in a practice that will at some point become intimate and completely unique to each individuals experience I just feel that using any sort of generalization is innapropriate.

Anyhoo, that's just how I feel.

Best,

S

[bailewen]

I don't deny the tension but I think you can do both. If you limit yourself to only that sort of very personal almost, shifu-tudi relationship, then a business model is never going to work but there is no reason why you can't have the bulk of your students operating under the standard model and then a small select few who have a different kind of relationship with your.

[cerebus]

I don't think that following the guidelines in that article and teaching quality martial arts are in any way mutually exclusive. It can certainly be done. It's just that many people are unable to find a way to connect the two in their own minds. Just because it won't work for one person doesn't mean that it won't work period...

[shawnsegler]

Fo sho....I'm just saying that it has to be taken into account, and assumed that following a model that is straight business is leaving out part of the most special part of this work.

The onus of responsibility is on the instructor to find that balance.

Ashe asked what we thought about the article and what I think is that you need to take all the stuff I brought up into your thinking when reading something like that....It's not something you would follow rote. Maybe that's obvious, but it's what It made me think.

Anyhoo, just my thought's on the subject. Ain't no big thing.

Best,

S

[fuga]

following a model that is straight business is leaving out part of the most special part of this work.

Which is what? I am not trying to bust your chops, Shawnm but I am honestly trying to understand where your beef is with this and I don't get it. Maybe I am not reading carefully enough. What's the most special part of this work and why is it not inclusive in a potential business model that places high value of meeting your customer's needs?

Personally, I would rather see IMAs move more towards a professional business approach than the usual mystical, stereotypical cloud of cultism and sifu worship that surround them.

[shawnsegler]

No worries, bro.

What's the most special part of this work

I'm saying the hands on part where you take the specific needs of an individual into account. Rather than training them by rote form work or something, or rote anything. I think the best part of learning this stuff comes from one on one training, and while it's possible to give that to some people while training lots of them en masse (which is what you want to be doing to make money), it will by necessity fall to the wayside a lot of the time if the needs of the mass of people become the priority. I agree with you totally, what I'm saying is the nature of doing this stuff that way kind of detracts from it a little. It's just the nature of it.

That's why it's really best to force privates on people...good for them...one on one attention...good for you...more money...but there is always going to be something in this paradigm that is working against some other aspect....the need for on one attention vs the money needs of the student...the need for group practice so that the money needs of the instructor are met....it's complicated, and trying to boil it down into anything formulaic is wrong.

That's all I'm saying. I'm all for less mysticism and more cold hard skill, but it will always be working at less than optimal as a business....just the nature of it.

As I said...the onus is on the insturctor to make it work...it's just necessarily going to be a juggling act and I think that needs to be taken into account whenever any sort of business model or ideas are taken in. The grain of salt is the just the nature of the ICMA...not impossible, just a very special thing all it's own that can't be taken as generic in any way shape or form. It's it's own paradigm.

Does that make sense?

Anyhoo...just my opinion.

S

[fuga]

I get what you are saying, Shawn. I agree that one-on-one training in the IMAs is where the transmission of skill lies. And yes, it might be more difficult to make it work teaching privates alone, especially as a business.

I am not arguing for formulaic but rather a customer-centric business model, rather than some of the teacher/sifu-centric models I have experienced.

And the funny thing is I have seen much less rote group practice in BJJ (run as a business) than I experienced in IMAs (which were run much less professionally).

[cerebus]

That's why it's really best to force privates on people...

Careful Shawn. You go forcing your "privates" on your students, you'll end up doin' jail time...

[shawnsegler]

ohhhh....behave, Troy!

[Bhassler]

All of that stuff in the article is just basic to being a professional. I'm always struck by the fact that what seems like 99% of people who claim to be professional teachers of a legitimate martial art (so I'm excluding McDojos) only give credence to the ability to fight/execute the art. Doing well is not teaching well. Being a great teacher is not the same as being a quality professional engaged in a customer service/business relationship. To be a quality professional you have to have all three, and a deficiency in any one devalues the others.

I don't think anything in the article is even remotely contradictory to what is being advocated as an ideal teacher-student relationship. I think people have been burned by folks who didn't really understand all three phases of the process and therefore they got into some negative habits. A properly executed business model allows for quality and consistency of service. The bills get paid, the instructor makes a living, and the students get a fine product at a reasonable price and know what to expect. Most professional martial arts/fighting teachers are poor to adequate teachers and worse business people. If people would actually take the time to learn how to teach and learn how to run an honest business with the same seriousness that they learned how to fight, the martial arts world would be a happier place today.

[WVMark]

1. People walk into a martial arts school and want something for their money. If they don't get it, they leave. Now, what's more important? Having more students so that you can pay the bills and keep the school open or keeping a smaller student base of dedicated people?

2. Pure monetary sums. 861 sq. ft (almost 30x30) office space in Pittsburgh for $12/sq ft /year = $861/month lease. Utilities of water/sewage/electric/phone run $200/month being thrifty. Now you're at $1061/month without insurance and not factoring in equipment/mats/etc. Student rates in Pittsburgh can run $75/month. Basic math suggests that you're going to need 15 students to cover the above costs. Now, what's more important in your mind -- Keeping the bills paid or teaching quality?

3. It's a no brainer to look at koryu in the Japanese arts and see that they are kept small for specific reasons. Their teaching model isn't one of "clients". If you don't fit "their" model, then you're out. Period. It's also a no brainer to look at most of the aikido world and see that it's run as a business model for income. Or even the tae kwon do world. The former example doesn't use "Improving Revenues by Increasing the Customer Experience" while the latter examples do.

4. There was someone here who posted his experiences about training in some Chinese art and his teacher would have him do different things while all other students did forms. So, who here believes that all those people doing forms were getting "quality" training? Or is it really that the one person was getting the quality training while the others were there to keep the business open? And how many times has that happened? Those people might *want* to do forms, but they aren't getting the quality martial art; they're getting the superficial martial art of forms. See examples in 99% of aikido, karate, taichi, tae kwon do, etc.

5. I'm not saying everything in the article is horrible. But it is a horrible article overall for any kind of quality martial arts instruction. Even the title sums it up, "Improving Revenues by Increasing the Customer Experience"
Q: What are you improving?
A: Revenues

No one seriously teaching quality martial arts will ever make a lot of money from it.
A. It means keeping teacher to student ratio way down.
B. It means students doing it *your* way and there is no other.
C. It means finding specific people who fit a specific model.
D. It means not having to do quite a bit of things in the article like newsletters, motivate clients, set goals with clients, pamper clients, making customer feel like they were right, feedback, etc.