"Martial Tai Chi"

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby AllanF on Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:16 pm

IMHO if the student says they just want the health side of taiji then fine you can still teach them one basic app for each move/transition if only so they understand them meaning of the movement and therefore can concentrate on preforming the movement correctly. If they are doing the movements correctly then the health benefits will manifest themselves faster.

One basic movement will not a fighter make and certainly not someone skilled at taiji, for that they have to understand the subtlties of the art and (though they can gain some understanding through form practice) that only comes from tui shou and free hand stuff, which they can do if they wish. No reason why the martial and health crowd can't train at the same time and take part as they see fit. Over time some of the health only crowd may become curious in the martial side.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby Jack Burton on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:39 am

She's a student of Chen Zhonghua but does a number of styles

From my point of view she's taken the 'practical method' & distorted it, as zealots do
Pretty certain she was in the army so that may have affected her way of looking at the world
She also says she came across so many "new age' types in taiji she felt she had to return it to a martial art.........

I also believe she only started training in martial arts since 1996 but tends to promote herself as a 'master' of a couple of styles..............

Personally I think some of her apps clips are okay but nothing extra special & definitely not any better than from other people who teach all that funny chi stuff :)

There are some people who say taiji isn't a martial art so I spose in the end she balances that out
Last edited by Jack Burton on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby TaoJoannes on Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:56 am

For me, the actual combat application in Taiji feels a lot like the dingy back room in the book store with the layers of dust all over it. You've got a bunch of yuppies out front drinking lattes and smelling their farts, and the guy behind the counter says, "I think I might have something you like back here" just before pulling the curtain aside.

We may not like the hippies, but they keep the rice bowl full.
oh qué una tela enredada que tejemos cuando primero practicamos para engañar
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby QuaiJohnCain on Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:44 pm

Heh, I got a full dose of her "corrections" when I voiced some critique in the past. She has big problems with "esoteric" Chinese terminology. You know, all of the words that the Chinese uttered to describe these arts...? Anyways, that spat was over "shenfa", which she continually rejected. Now aside from other words, like Chi, Jing, etc. Here's another one that she visibly rejected: "kua". :P


EDIT: I noticed that the post count got reset again. I'm not new.....
Last edited by QuaiJohnCain on Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby Syd on Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:50 pm

Ya gotta love it when a stranger walks into your house and tells you what name to call YOUR dog! :D
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:03 pm

Darthwing Teorist wrote:
Darth Rock&Roll wrote:There was a guy in the city i grew up in. His name was Brian Coxx. He trained RCMP in D Division what he referred to a Combat Tai Chi. Lots of hard hits, step ins, throw downs. he produced a manual and I think it can still be had at the hippy bookstore "prarie sky books" on wolseley. It's a good manual for applied bad ass tai chi.

his tai chi aint the same as your average old lady tai chi.

It was drawn from Yang style.



Can you get me one of those manuals? I will pay you for it when I see you.


Teo, I would certainly oblige of course, but 1000 mile trip west isn't in order right now. :)
However, you can call! Prairie Sky 871 Westminister Avenue Winnipeg, MB R3G 1B3 Telephone: 204-774-6152 Fax: 204-775-3534
and ask if they have one in stock. I believe it is simply called "combat tai chi" and it is by Brian Coxx. Circa 1979? somewhere in that timeframe.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby mixjourneyman on Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:05 pm

Syd wrote:Ya gotta love it when a stranger walks into your house and tells you what name to call YOUR dog! :D


You better call it lucky, or Elvis, or else I'm gonna have to pee on your carpet.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby JoseFreitas on Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:29 am

AllanF wrote:IMHO if the student says they just want the health side of taiji then fine you can still teach them one basic app for each move/transition if only so they understand them meaning of the movement and therefore can concentrate on preforming the movement correctly. If they are doing the movements correctly then the health benefits will manifest themselves faster.

One basic movement will not a fighter make and certainly not someone skilled at taiji, for that they have to understand the subtlties of the art and (though they can gain some understanding through form practice) that only comes from tui shou and free hand stuff, which they can do if they wish. No reason why the martial and health crowd can't train at the same time and take part as they see fit. Over time some of the health only crowd may become curious in the martial side.


Exactly.

In my experience (I sometime help my teacher show stuff, and also occasionally teach a class) we start by telling the student that if he knows an application, then it'll be easier to remember the move, to focus on the move when practicing, and also that it will make their Taiji more "alive" and "beautiful" if they're expressing some sort of energy (you can also insert some bullshit about "knowing the app puts different qi in the move which is better for health", which may even be true). Then, later, you get them to practice the apps slow motion with each other "to correct the moves and feel the difference" or something. If they want to take it further, fine. The 2-person form is also a good way to approach it with someone who has some training (even non-martial), provided they have good balance, flow and stances.

Also, I genuinely think that some small level of tui shou (non-martial) is actually very healthy, from a psychological point of view because it cav get people used to being in semi-competitive-semi-cooperative contact while trying to remain physically and psychologically. So, a little PH can be pushed (so to speak) on the student simply because it is healthy too. So, some students will stop there: they'll practice Qigong set, Form, some PH, perhaps a couple of additional forms, perhaps some more challenging physically as they progress, and perhaps 2-person set of a some pre-arranged choreographed short semi-pH-semi-2personset. That's fine. It'll be really good for them. In the end, you can have a full continuum of students, from the totally uninterested in self-defense, to the totally committed to Taiji for fighting, and everything in-between (I am somewhere in-between, perhaps slightly to center of somewhat interested in fighting), and the class can be very enjoyable (not to mention the teacher can actyually have a real life with real money too).

Really, considering the total amount of time us nerdy, semi-intellectual, professional types are going to be in fights in our lives, training Taiji for self defense is probably a pretty bad return on investment for the majority of people. "Like Old Man Lu, who spent a thousand ducats and 3 years studying the techniques of killing Dragons just to find out they'd vanished for good".

This is not to say I have anything against people who practice Taiji for fighting, although I prefer practitioners who integrate other goals into their art.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby zenshiite on Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:52 pm

I'll tell you what sets off alarm bells for me with this chick... her anti-Qi stance. It's not just that she's anti-Qi, it's that she's coming after it as if it's some sort of moral crusade. She goes to the extent of putting anti-Qi articles by loopy Christians and one from my own co-religionists. I mean, it's just sad. You want a fairly precise term for the mystical dimension of Qi? How about Breath, or Vital Breath? It serves a purpose, and more importantly, cuts directly to the so-called "problem" that people of other religions have made of it. For both Christians and Muslims... I challenge them to find a word in the vernacular of both religions that DOESN'T cannotate the same thing. In Hebrew you've got the words nefesh and ruach meaning soul and spirit, in Arabic you've got nafs and ruh meaning the same. Nafs/nefesh literally indicates the act of breathing. Ruh/Ruach both carry the meaning of "wind." The Greek word pneuma also means "breath" and at the same time "spirit." Having that knowledge alone just wipes away religious objections to qi as a concept and qigong as a practice. Let alone certain acts within a religious context that are themselves, technically, qigongs. For instance, the Qur'an is structured for taking breaths after each verse or a collection of verses. It's a breathing excercise coupled with recitations that inevitably involve the syllables often used in meditative practices. More importantly, I've experienced similar sensations while reciting the Qur'an that I have while doing qigong or bagua without ever having any expectation of that happening.

Plus this whole vibe, that's a usual Eurocentric or Amerocentric point of view, of being a sort of messianic figure for those sad lesser people of non-European descent. She clearly wants to not only save the Chinese from their "erroneous" ways, but also save the rest of the world from being duped by said ways.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby klonk on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:33 pm

zenshiite wrote:I'll tell you what sets off alarm bells for me with this chick... her anti-Qi stance. It's not just that she's anti-Qi, it's that she's coming after it as if it's some sort of moral crusade. She goes to the extent of putting anti-Qi articles by loopy Christians and one from my own co-religionists. I mean, it's just sad. You want a fairly precise term for the mystical dimension of Qi? How about Breath, or Vital Breath? It serves a purpose, and more importantly, cuts directly to the so-called "problem" that people of other religions have made of it. For both Christians and Muslims... I challenge them to find a word in the vernacular of both religions that DOESN'T cannotate the same thing. In Hebrew you've got the words nefesh and ruach meaning soul and spirit, in Arabic you've got nafs and ruh meaning the same. Nafs/nefesh literally indicates the act of breathing. Ruh/Ruach both carry the meaning of "wind." The Greek word pneuma also means "breath" and at the same time "spirit." Having that knowledge alone just wipes away religious objections to qi as a concept and qigong as a practice. Let alone certain acts within a religious context that are themselves, technically, qigongs. For instance, the Qur'an is structured for taking breaths after each verse or a collection of verses. It's a breathing excercise coupled with recitations that inevitably involve the syllables often used in meditative practices. More importantly, I've experienced similar sensations while reciting the Qur'an that I have while doing qigong or bagua without ever having any expectation of that happening.

Plus this whole vibe, that's a usual Eurocentric or Amerocentric point of view, of being a sort of messianic figure for those sad lesser people of non-European descent. She clearly wants to not only save the Chinese from their "erroneous" ways, but also save the rest of the world from being duped by said ways.


I agree mostly with your first paragraph, I am still pondering the second. I think the philosophical difficulty comes when qi's definition is extended beyond the meaning of breath and spirit, in the sense those things mean life itself, and take on other and broader overtones. Here are trapdoors leading to pantheism (which I suppose we reject together) and leading also to something like folk magic, which I for one consider unreliable as wet gunpowder, whether your brand of choice is Chinese or European, or comes from somewhere else.

Of course it is not necessary to jump through those trapdoors, to get full enjoyment from taijiquan, but it is well to know they are there, and that some people jump through them enthusiastically.

The trouble is it is very difficult to talk about such things as life force and intent without involving more besides, some idea or view of the universe you live in, not just a worldview but a universeview, ideas of what is possible and what is not. In discussing such matters you must say something about what you believe lies beyond your own self, or keep quiet while everyone else is talking. :)

Or maybe I'm just peevish because I still can't levitate.
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby Syd on Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:47 pm

Who would willingly jump through a trap door though? A hoop is one thing but a trap door another ... ;)
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby klonk on Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:03 pm

Syd wrote:Who would willingly jump through a trap door though? A hoop is one thing but a trap door another ... ;)


Right. Geronimo, mate. ;) You remind me of some editors...say! What business are you in?
I define internal martial art as unusual muscle recruitment and leave it at that. If my definition is incomplete, at least it is correct so far as it goes.
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Re: "Martial Tai Chi"

Postby Syd on Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:45 am

klonk wrote:
Syd wrote:Who would willingly jump through a trap door though? A hoop is one thing but a trap door another ... ;)


Right. Geronimo, mate. ;) You remind me of some editors...say! What business are you in?


All round Renaissance man mate ... I'm a professional musician, semi pro photographer, writer and documentary film maker with a background in the Literature trade and too many books on my shelves for my own good. :)
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