defining tai chi chuan

[Walter Joyce]

1. Unless you have touched hands with a student of GM Chang you have no idea how they would compare with the taiji masters you have encountered, its just idle speculation on your part.

2. Have you ever thought that maybe John Wang makes the comments about taiji he does because he sees a deficiency in the way other people have been taught?

1. Agreed. I have no problem accepting the idea that there are effective teachers and practitioners other than those I have met. I'm actually an advocate for the idea that taiji is an effective fighting art.

2. Yes I had considered that thought when he first started posting in a critical fashion. But after reading his posts for years now I have yet to see one that gave credit to any taiji master as being authentic other than his own teacher, General Chang. This lead me to conclude that he was doing something other than playing devils advocate. And just as it is speculation on my part, so to it is speculation for someone to paint with such a broad critical stroke, how can anyone know how taiji is being taught everywhere. There are people that teach taiji well, and there are also people who can use taiji effectively, a possibility that has never been entertained in any of the posts I've read by JW.

[johnwang]

I'm actually an advocate for the idea that taiji is an effective fighting art.

Walter:

In stead of pointing fingers on me, why don't you explain your point of view why do you think Taiji is an effective fighting art?

[bruce]

my point in this thread is to demonstrate that all the labels while useful for conversation and explaining ideas i think get in the way of the way an individual may use their skill or method. i think too much is invested in this is " xyz" style and we do this and dont do that etc etc.
it is a double edge sword and a fine line but i think freedom is important.

[klonk]

Klonk, I can name probably at least 50 very good taiji masters in China, but have a hard time naming even ten in any other single country.

Hi Mix,

I'm pretty sure you are trying to make my argument say more than it does.

P.S. There are more Chinese restaurants there too.

[johnwang]

after reading his posts for years now I have yet to see one that gave credit to any taiji master.

Because I have not met any Taiji master who are willing to admit there are something missing in the Taiji system. Some enhancement will be needed for the Taiji system to be combat effective:

- There should be some training beyond push hand.
- Grabbing should be added to disallow your opponent to have freedom of "change".
- Leg moves and contact point concept should be included instead of just "push at the center" and allow your opponent to have freedom on his legs.
- Giving force so you can borrow your opponent's resist or yield.
- Don't be afraid to let your opponent to feel you. His feeling can trigger his action, and his action can trigger you to borrow his force.
- Finish moves training should be emphasized.
- Yang should be treated as important as Yin.

This is JW and I approve this message.

[mixjourneyman]

Klonk, I can name probably at least 50 very good taiji masters in China, but have a hard time naming even ten in any other single country.

Hi Mix,

I'm pretty sure you are trying to make my argument say more than it does.

P.S. There are more Chinese restaurants there too.

All I'm trying to say is that Mao didn't kill taijiquan in China. I doubt Mao even killed any traditional culture completely. Actually, China has been on the move to restore many traditional practices that Mao and the red guard tried to eradicate. I believe that the best place to find authentic taijiquan is still China. But maybe I'm missing your point and making it out to be more all encompassing than it is. I'm open to that.

[Dmitri]

LOL @ JW

[bruce]

after reading his posts for years now I have yet to see one that gave credit to any taiji master.

Because I have not met any Taiji master who are willing to admit there are something missing in the Taiji system. Some enhancement will be needed for the Taiji system to be combat effective:

- There should be some training beyond push hand.
- Grabbing should be added to disallow your opponent to have freedom of "change".
- Leg moves and contact point concept should be included instead of just "push at the center" and allow your opponent to have freedom on his legs.
- Giving force so you can borrow your opponent's resist or yield.
- Don't be afraid to let your opponent to feel you. His feeling can trigger his action, and his action can trigger you to borrow his force.
- Finish moves training should be emphasized.
- Yang should be treated as important as Yin.

This is JW and I support this message.

i fully agree with these statements. for my practice i have been told i am not doing "tai chi chuan" for doing the very things you mention above in "push hand" practice. for me the definition of push hands is different than 99% of other tai chi chuan people though.

[TaoJoannes]

Okay, let's say that the sum total of all martial arts can be represented by the set known as A, and the sum of the techniques and skills and abilities trained by any particular martial art is a subset of A. There is a subset of skills and abilities that is Taijiquan, this is not identical to the set known as A, or any other comparative subset of MA techniques, it simply is what it is, lets call it B. The set of techniques of a Taiji player must then be a subset of B, plus techniques skills and abilities learned from other sources, such as other martial arts, personal experience, sports, imagination, and through the glorious grace of the messenger gods, we'll call that C.

It's an error to assume that C can ever encompass all of A, or that B should be all of A, or that C is equal to B. A is A, B is B, and C is C.

[Dmitri]

It's an error to assume that C can ever encompass all of A, or that B should be all of A, or that C is equal to B. A is A, B is B, and C is C.

[not-trying-to-derail-just-couldn't-help-it]But then there's Sifu Z, who is in a whole separate subset of his own.[/not-trying-to-derail-just-couldn't-help-it]

[bigphatwong]

I prefer the classic symbolic logic approach. A = B = X = Y = I don't give a fuck.

[johnwang]

I prefer the classic symbolic logic approach. A = B = X = Y = I don't give a fuck.

I like your statement very much (I'm not always disagree with people and love to argue for the sake of argument). If you know A, B, and C then I don't know how you can think about A and not think about B and C at the same time. No matter which base that you start from (A, B, or C), your final task is to face the ouside problems and be able to handle yourself well. The set of outside problems is not defined by your system but defined by all the MA systems.

[TaoJoannes]

It's an error to assume that C can ever encompass all of A, or that B should be all of A, or that C is equal to B. A is A, B is B, and C is C.

[not-trying-to-derail-just-couldn't-help-it]But then there's Sifu Z, who is in a whole separate subset of his own.[/not-trying-to-derail-just-couldn't-help-it]

As the following Venn diagram illustrates.

[Bhassler]

.

[Ben]

I haven't got to logon for 2 days since my two jobs have had me working around the clock so I haven't read all the posts in this. I did want to add my 2 cents real quick. I'll get caught up on the rest of it sometime soon.

what is tai chi chuan?
Yin/Yang interaction theory applied to fighting, Really its different things to different people. Just to me its a few different things.
-what was tai chi chuan developed for?
I don't really want to answer this one.
-why practice tai chi chuan?
Because its enjoyable and can have positive impact on life.
-is tai chi chuan a martial art?
Yes for some, No for others
-if yes why?
Thats how they practice it
-if no why?
Thats not how they practice it
can tai chi chuan evolve?
Definetly, it can and does.
can tai chi chuan be different things to different people?
I covored this above but I honestly think Taiji is something different to every individual person, even if only slightly in some cases.