the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

Why do we have more discussion in:

- ZZ,
- Natural force,
- The Tao of Yiquan,
- Internal Striking,
- Blue flame chi emitting from my palm,
- Keeping heels down in Bagua,
- ...

but not many discussion in:

- What to do after you have caught your opponent's kicking leg?
- How to break your opponent's clintching?
- How to apply follow striking after throwing?
- How to run your opponent down?
- ...

Some discussion even ignore the existence of "opponent". Does this forum gradually turn into a "solo arts" discussion only?

I just find very little benefit to realize that someone can do this but I can't.

one of my computers keeps crashing and I tried to repair it for 2 weeks. reading the manuals, and calling the service--

well at least one of my computers is still working.

I meant when we are obessed with one problem, or thing, that is all we think about at the time.

--

1. if I caught one of the opponent's legs, I will throw him, by tripping his supporting leg, by swinging his caught leg, by pushing his caught leg upward, by---

2. by stomping his foot, by elbowing his stomanch, by bending his holding hand's finger, wrist ---

3. if the opponent is down on the ground, we would strike his nose/face, heart/chest etc

4. by running toward him with hands forward with bent elbows, or by running toward his side, and tripping him with one of our legs,--

just to mention some "solutions".

--

agreed that even when we practice solo forms, we have to imagine the opponent is right in front of our moves. thus we have the intents.

in real world, we have to consider timing and positioning and the opponent's countermoves etc.

good thread.

I'd throw up some of the stuff like that that's been worrying me, but even the basic problem tends to make people's brains break for some unknown reason; that being 'What do you do when you can't keep your footing and hit the floor, but your opponent shows no desire to obligingly climb on top of you?' Dishuquan deals with that in CMA, but I have yet to see any in person, and people keep thinking that that style is a GRAPPLING one. (it isn't.) Mine does, but i'm trying to work out some more technical points of the issue. There are still a couple angles and power generation details that i'm hazy on.

I wish there was an easy way to post those computer figures that Felipe used to do for apps.

The main reason I don't bring stuff like that up often is that I have a hard time discussing stuff that involves two people without visual cues.

It's hard for me to just abstract out a dynamic situation when talking about it.

I'd love to have more Opponent/technique discussions going on. The place has felt a little out of balance lately...Blue Flame....

Right on, Mr. Wang, sir! It seems to me that the idea of a martial art is you are fighting someone, but the close connection of internal arts to medical and meditative theories tends to draw attention away from the idea of kicking some serious ass.

The lack of prestige of CMA in the West is closely related to the the impression that it is effete, "Whoa, look out, he will wave his hands in the clouds! Everybody take cover, he is about to brush his knee!"

Nothing wrong with, say, taiji, as it practiced by millions, as a self cultivation art with no fight in it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be healthy and relaxed and living a long time. But it is pretty evident when someone has crossed the line from combatives to health and aesthetics, and has no more wu in his shu. You see this to a greater or lesser extent in a number of martial arts; there are some people more interested in the activity than its practical use.

So I wouldn't worry about it! Those who value reality will see reality, but those looking for something else will--and I rather lay stress on this point, for it is important--will always find what they are looking for, whether it is really there or not.

agreed that even when we practice solo forms, we have to imagine the opponent is right in front of our moves. thus we have the intents.

I totally disagree with this statement. Forms are for developing the how to of a given system. I would say that more time needs to be spent working on getting the technique and mechanics right before visualizing on an opponent.

Personally John I understand your perspective, I think though it is quite hard to discuss particulars of 'what would you do if....' sort of stuff without the visual ques as Shawn says. Also though the 'what would you do if...' requires knowledge of how the opponent feels/what the intent is ect. Having someone attack with a stiff arm jab is going to elicit a different response than a soft arm jab ect. But I think that if some one attacks me I will attack right back. I train lots of different things with opponents and find that there is no point waiting once the engagement begins.... my aim in any situation is to 'invade their space, steal their timing, borrow their breathe' and knock their lights out. This is my strategy, the way I employ this strategy changes with all the variables such as, is it a surprise attack, is the attack/er hard and stiff or soft and supple, is the attacker bigger or smaller, and so on.

I find it very hard to break it down to if 'A' does 'B' then I will respond with 'C'

Bearing this in mind if: What to do after you have caught your opponent's kicking leg? My general responses to catching a kick are a/ take out the rear leg or b/pull and twist the offending leg or c/ use my body as the fulcrum and spin around while still holding the leg throwing the guy down.
How to break your opponent's clintching? Depends on what the aim of the clinch is, generally I don't mind being in the clinch, as long as I can get some leg on leg contact to disrupt power generation into the knee attacks and can maintain some form of structure I will use the opportunity to use elbows and hands to mash face.

How to apply follow striking after throwing? interesting question, if I utilize a take down (I would not call my take downs throws generally) I like to try and maintain some control so that once they are on the ground they are near enough to kick, or drop a knee on, often I will try to immobilize one arm with a foot (stand on it) while dropping the knee to the head or sternum.

How to run your opponent down? again depends on what you mean. If they are retreating from me I will try to corner them before moving in. Typically though if they are running away I have already failed in controling the situation enough. If you mean by run them down just overwelming forward intent then typically I would wait for an opening to attack. Once I see the attack I move in deflect/attach to the attack and steal the time and energy that the other guy has invested in hitting me to smash into them hold on to them and keep smashing till I can no longer hold them up

well it is usually easier for most people to work on "solo" more often than on "partner" stuff ... yeah i await the humorous remarks...

more time needs to be spent working on getting the technique and mechanics right before visualizing on an opponent.

I don't think you can train your technique and mechanics right without a visualizing opponent? You can't train your correct technique and perfect body mechanic if you punch to the "east" why your eyes are looking to the "north" (because your visualized opponent is on your east and not on your north)? Without the visualizing opponent, the coordination of hands, eyes, body method, and footwork has no meaning at all. How can you tell your "footwork" is correct if you don't assume where your opponent stands?

Playing the role of Chris McKinley this evening will be John Wang.

johnwang wrote:

more time needs to be spent working on getting the technique and mechanics right before visualizing on an opponent.

How can you tell your "footwork" is correct if you don't assume where your opponent stand?

Footwork is often times over-rated. Try to punch as if you're standing on a sheet of ice. I read it somewhere and it made a lot of sense for me. Cheers!

How can footwork often be over rated? Footwork is what carries the rest of your movements to either get out of harms way or inflict damage to whatever is trying to cause you harm.

In the system I train John the aim of the form is to help learn and understand the principles of power production and mechanics. The footwork is very basic and linear. There is no point in visualizing an opponent if you are unable to use your techniques without any skill... I.E: if your elbow keeps sticking out like a floating chicken wing your are not going to fix that by visualizing an opponent you will fix that by visualizing doing the technique correctly. Once you have the technique correct you can choose (and should) to visualize an opponent if you like, but it is not the main aim of formwork IMO. The aim of form is to develop the mechanic and power of the system, the aim of training with partners is to develop the practical application of the mechanics and powers of the system, as well as spontaneity and fluid motion.

I think far to many people practice forms as a type of choreography to fight... I.E: the sequence in a form is a combo, while this may occasionally be correct it is erroneous to train your body to act in this manner without allowing for change. All it takes is one opponent to react differently to your visualization of the form in order to screw it up. I have no problem if you break the form down and look at where you are targeting each technique, but to me this is a little different to visualizing.

anyway I have to get to work.

Visualization is not bad in and of itself but when it is thought of as the main aim of formwork it is erroneous, first your moves have to be decent then go ahead and visualize.

Joe L. wrote:How can footwork often be over rated? Footwork is what carries the rest of your movements to either get out of harms way or inflict damage to whatever is trying to cause you harm.

Because sometimes you have no room to move yet still need to survive that strike or send a good one. Don't get me wrong I often teach that the eyes connect to the feet but relying on anything in combat can be foolish. You should also spend sometime training as if you're on a crowded bus and someone's trying to stab you. Where are you gonna run?

If my visualized opponent is among the people in a crowded bus then I may train my "elbow strike" instead of "hip throw" or "spin back kick" for that situation.

Here is an example that footwork may be different depend on where your visualized opponent stands.

http://johnswang.com/shoulder_strike.wmv

johnwang wrote:Why do we have more discussion in:

- ZZ,

For me, this is directly related to fighting. IMO the goal is something like this:



boof!

Obviously if you don't do partner work, your solo work will be empty.