Adhere and follow : Jab

[middleway]

following on from JW's 'opponnents' thread.

Thought i would see peoples ideas on how to deal with a Jab. Not necessarily in a 'sparring' situation just any general insights people have had.

Particularly interesting to me is how arts like I Liq Chuan and Taiji use their adhere and follow principles against a Jab.

thoughts?

cheers
Chris

[Ian]

here's how I try to do it at least...

before it happens:
do something against the guy pre-emptively. against the body or the limbs or both. depends on the situation.

if it's already happening:
foremost is to protect myself. move my whole person out of the way. if I can't do that, move my head like a mosquito or a snake - basically like how a boxer bobs and weaves - and counter in the same movement. against the body or the limbs or both. depends on the situation.

if it has already happened:
recover, never stop moving, counter asap. depends on the situation

[GrahamB]

Hey Chris, here's some random thoughts that popped into my head:

1. Just put something in the way (like a guard) and you have contact with a part of you.... that is not your face.

2. Don't watch the hand, watch their body movement and deal with that

3. "Adhere" - do you have to actually make contact to "adhere"? Can you adhere to their "mind"/personal space?

4. This was a pretty darn effective way to deal with a jab:



5. Throwing applications against a jab - do they really work? What about this type of stuff:

[middleway]

nice one guys,

Yeh my prefered method is to stick out a receptive guard so the opponent has to cross that first, as soon as they make any contact your in, no matter how fast. But like you say ian thats a 'before' idea.

a during idea is mainly a case of covering, raising a covering elbow or something then working off that contact for me. People with a good jab have an uncanny ability to get through guards or covers. you see alot of UFC guys eating Jabs all day long.

3. "Adhere" - do you have to actually make contact to "adhere"? Can you adhere to their "mind"/personal space?

I think this is more of a general idea rather than something specific to dealing with a jabbing opponent ... but certainly a useful and workable thing. I really like following and matching the opponents motion then breaking that to throw their mind a bit. This is most effective very small i have found where they start to use a certain motion and you match them then break off that line in another direction or line.

5. Throwing applications against a jab - do they really work? What about this type of stuff:

I wouldnt say that guy was 'jabbing' personally. Jab is 'in/out' ... it doesnt hang around at all so i think the idea of cutting its line in that way is not really practical.

Its a case of steps IMO.
Jabber:
1. Jab

Defender
1. recognise the line
2. move in circular line
3. respond.

The jab is super fast ... i think its one of the punches that are rarely worked against in alot of CMA schools.



this is the sort of punch i am talking about.



Cheers
Chris

[klonk]

Lately I have been thinking that people should be much more freeform in applying taiji than most tend to be. Rather than the if a then b, if c then d pattern of doing things, just stick on and see where it takes you. If your arm is in contact with his arm, you can probably come up with some extemporaneous way to keep him from hitting you, with the arm you are touching. On this view, taiji forms are not the art, merely examples of how the art works. The art is in its principles, of stick, follow and then retaliate.

I call what I am talking about the "early stick on defense" where you establish touch with the opponent at the earliest possible moment. Before the punch is thrown is the time to establish the contact.

In the interest of complete disclosure, I should probably say that my more likely response is to raise the old boxing guard and try to slip and counter-punch. I am not altogether confident in my own taiji theories, I suppose.

[middleway]

Lately I have been thinking that people should be much more freeform in applying taiji than most tend to be. Rather than the if a then b, if c then d pattern of doing things, just stick on and see where it takes you. If your arm is in contact with his arm, you can probably come up with some extemporaneous way to keep him from hitting you, with the arm you are touching. On this view, taiji forms are not the art, merely examples of how the art works. The art is in its principles, of stick, follow and then retaliate.

bingo! thats what i have been thinking for a long time now. i would expand on the 'keep him from hitting you' point to add that when he retracts his arm he is basically pulling your arm to him so enabling you to give the dude a smack!

Cheers
Chris

[DeusTrismegistus]

Well its better to avoid it. So I like to stay on the end of it so it barely misses me and follow it back in as its retracted, that lets me close the gap. You just have to be careful for the double tap, where they only half retract the jab then stick it back out. That doesn't have much power but will stop your momentum.

As for blocking I like to move jabs off to the sides but I don't like to stick to them. A jab is a feeler and a guage of distance and timing, its also non-committed. Sticking to a non-committed strike is IME not very effective. I would rather give them an opening for following up the jab and then stick and adhere to the committed power strike.

[klonk]

A jab is a feeler and a guage of distance and timing, its also non-committed.

I wouldn't count on it too much. Jack Dempsey popularized doing the jab with a weight shift, and many people since have picked up on the idea and do it that way, so you really don't know what the random opponent is aiming at you. A jab done with weight behind it can have enough pop and sizzle to rock yo' world!

[DeusTrismegistus]

A jab is a feeler and a guage of distance and timing, its also non-committed.

I wouldn't count on it too much. Jack Dempsey popularized doing the jab with a weight shift, and many people since have picked up on the idea and do it that way, so you really don't know what the random opponent is aiming at you. A jab done with weight behind it can have enough pop and sizzle to rock yo' world!

I can jab quite hard myself but I don't consider a committed front hand straight punch a jab, I consider that a front lead as Bruce Lee described in Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Which is more susceptible to an effective parry than a jab is IMO. Throwing a committed striked from distance at a ready opponent is only going to be effective against noobs IME. Anyone with a year of half decent training should be able to avoid that even if they can't counter it. Of course you can always use distraction and/or scare tactics to cause your opponent to freeze momentarily, such as shouting as you strike or stomping, or winding up your right hand for a giant punch and quickly throwing the left.

[bigphatwong]

Assuming it's a matched lead:

-Inside parry and return with my own jab (same hand)

-Outside "wedge" parry (palm in, like swatting a fly by your ear) and return with thumb jab to eye, followed by a slap punch

All this done while moving and shuffling, never static.

[JusticeZero]

If I happen to touch onto the arm, i'll probably deflect and pull them into an elbow or throw of some sort - the elbow being the most likely if I can suck them past. I'm not going to count on it working, since those are very low commitment techniques for me that happen to be incidental applications of setting up other things. I keep a guard up to absorb flicky stuff like that. I'm not going to imagine that I can see something like that coming on an unfamiliar fighter and do something elaborate in response; I try to stick to the limb at least but I don't know how that will work until it happens. More committed attacks get evaded. I think the response I was showing from last class for "incoming frontal force from the upper body" from the ready position involved rolling it to the side while extending a lead leg, tripping them over said leg and tossing them against the floor with bodyweight as part of a shift to a floor stance. Whether the stars are aligned for that movement to be the one to come out, too soon to say.

[middleway]

one cracking thing i learn is to spear the jab onto you elbow .... seriously they rethink throwing another after this!

.037 and .45 in this vid


chris

[GrahamB]

one cracking thing i learn is to spear the jab onto you elbow .... seriously they rethink throwing another after this!

.037 and .45 in this vid


chris

heh - that guy has some serious old-guy Fu! I like it.

[neijia_boxer]

Crazy monkey forearm blocking

[Juan]

here's how I try to do it at least...

before it happens:
do something against the guy pre-emptively. against the body or the limbs or both. depends on the situation.

if it's already happening:
foremost is to protect myself. move my whole person out of the way. if I can't do that, move my head like a mosquito or a snake - basically like how a boxer bobs and weaves - and counter in the same movement. against the body or the limbs or both. depends on the situation.

if it has already happened:
recover, never stop moving, counter asap. depends on the situation

I do the same