the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

As a follow on from Tom's thread re Transparent Power and from Chris' (Middleway) thread about dealing with a jab, there is a snippet in the book where Sawaga Yukiyoshi says:

"Everyone is simply practicing the Tai Sabaka in shape only. I've been practicing it, modifying it for real situations...What to do when the person comes at me with fast sharp strikes? Or when he rushes me with multiple strikes? When he is able to retract his fist after he strikes. I thought about and experimented with how I could use Tai Sababki against these things...You must be able to deal with an opponent no matter how hard or how fast he comes at you using only Tai Sabaki"

For me this is one aspect that is missing from taijiquan, in my experience there is little or no drills to train this in taiji. Even my own teacher admit that if your are against multiple attackers then you MUST keep moving but in taiji we never train this body movement. Even some of the bagua people i have met and experimented with don't move very well (maybe just they were crap) when it came to a more realistic situation.

So do you practice this?

If so how do you do it?

Is this type of training predominently the domain of Japanese Martial arts (aikido, Daito ryu etc.)?

For me this is a key aspect of my training that is missing and thus would be obliged to get any pointers in this regard.

Allan

What is tai sabaki? No two explanations I've come across have been the same.

"What to do if the person comes at me with fast sharp strikes? Or if he rushes me with multiple strikes? What if he is able to retract his fist after he strikes."

If? :S

I always thought is just meant 'body movement' but perhaps some of our more enlightened JMA members can explain more.

But as i have never studied JMA nor do i read/speak/write Japanese i am more than happy to put my hands up and say 'my bad' and will correct it if given the right words.

EDIT: If/when in the OP has been fixed!

Swing a long stick at the person, or have two people swinging sticks. Or there are lots of variations on the "dalek" drill, a group of people walking / running into one person with fists outsretched. Or have one person punch and kick, the other person has to keep hands in pockets and move. Throwing tennis balls or firing airsoft at people helps them move too ;-)

Ian:

Excellent comment. ("If...?") I am not sure if the author's comment reflects:
- Poor translation (ie it should have read "When"); or
- The fact that many martial artists are so trapped in unrealistic drills, that they have almost lost sight of realistic attacks.

Allan:

Tai sabaki in JMA refers to moving the body out of the way of strikes without blocking (though it is ideally used in combination with blocks and parries). I suppose you could translate it as "angling and footwork."

I agree that most Taiji peeps do not train realistically for this situation - ie opponents coming at one with multiple strikes that are done at speed, and not simply held out there, nor are they hugely telegraphed and overcommitted - but you could probably say the same for a majority of TMAs.

In Bagua, in response to an attack we trained first to block, then to angle the body, then to step. Then you put all three together. Dealing with an attack using only footwork is probably the most advanced method, while blocking, parrying or covering is probably the most instintive (and basic) method.

Boxing - with its practice of slipping, bobbing and weaving - probably has the best torso methods for punch evasion.

Best footwork? A lot more contenders in that space.

AllanF wrote:As a follow on from Tom's thread re Transparent Power and from Chris' (Middleway) thread about dealing with a jab, there is a snippet in the book where Sawaga Yukiyoshi says:

"Everyone is simply practicing the Tai Sabaka in shape only. I've been practicing it, modifying it for real situations...What to do if the person comes at me with fast sharp strikes? Or if he rushes me with multiple strikes? What if he is able to retract his fist after he strikes. I thought about and experimented with how I could use Tai Sababki against these things...You must be able to deal with an opponent no matter how hard or how fast he comes at you using only Tai Sabaki"

For me this is one aspect that is missing from taijiquan, in my experience there is little or no drills to train this in taiji. Even my own teacher admit that if your are against multiple attackers then you MUST keep moving but in taiji we never train this body movement. Even some of the bagua people i have met and experimented with don't move very well (maybe just they were crap) when it came to a more realistic situation.

So do you practice this?

If so how do you do it?

Is this type of training predominently the domain of Japanese Martial arts (aikido, Daito ryu etc.)?

For me this is a key aspect of my training that is missing and thus would be obliged to get any pointers in this regard.

Allan

I think if you do uncoperative sparring of some kind these questions will just naturally evaporate from your mind

- like tears in the rain.

GrahamB wrote:
I think if you do uncoperative sparring of some kind these questions will just naturally evaporate from your mind

- like tears in the rain.

Hmmm not so sure, the problem with sparring is it can encourage people to go toe to toe and just face off against one guy rather than move. Throwing in 3 or 4 people will encourage more movement, or make it a condition of the sparring that one guy has to escape / evade

Then spar 3 or 4 people?

Anyway, isn't the question about learning how to deal with people who are not "hugely telegraphed and overcommitted"?

Interesting drills Rob. I should have said drill that you can do on your own. As 90% of my training is solo practice.

Andy, the footwork only drills i am interested in is it done in a similar fashion to the aikido stuff?

eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFUAljTzWV4



Graham, we do uncooperative work, actually that is the only partner work we do, but it is kept to a push hands practice and so contact has already been made before/as you start. I agree it does help your foot work in terms of dealing with sweeps etc.

GrahamB wrote:Then spar 3 or 4 people?

Anyway, isn't the question about learning how to deal with people who are not "hugely telegraphed and overcommitted"?

Uh, yep dats wot I said. And yep, so have the stick wielder or whatever make short movements. Though generally at first bigger movements help the person to learn - unless of course they are an expert already

Alan - solo training for this would be a bit difficult. I'd suggest try moving around obstacles while mainting posture as much as possible, starting slow, then faster as your movement gets smoother. You could try running through a forest or similar, something that causes you to dodge and twist as much as possible. I guess you could try something like swinging a heavy bag and evading it, or perhaps one of thsoe tetherball-type games

I tend to think that being attacked by a long stick will help you to learn to evade attacks.... by a long stick.

If you want to avoid quick jabs, then why not have somebody quick jab you until you get the hang of it?

All I'm saying, is that if you want to learn to deal with "attack X" then why not have somebody do "attack X" on you until you learn to deal with it? Am I being crazy or is it really not that complicated?

GrahamB wrote:I tend to think that being attacked by a long stick will help you to learn to evade attacks.... by a long stick.

If you want to avoid quick jabs, then why not have somebody quick jab you until you get the hang of it?

All I'm saying, is that if you want to learn to deal with "attack X" then why not have somebody do "attack X" on you until you learn to deal with it? Am I being crazy or is it really not that complicated?

So I guess standing post teaches you how to stand still? Form teaches you how to do a form?

No it isn't complicated and learning to deal with attack X by working against attack X is fine. Then you have to learn aatack Y. Then Z, then A, then B.....
However there are ways of training that help you learn to deal with X,Y and Z as well as some other interesting lessons all in one go. Saves a lot of time

To begin with, tai sabaki is not being exactly where you're expected to be, whether by an inch or a mile. Then...well, I never got past the beginning!

There is some very good stuff in taijiquan to make this happen, getting your center and various appendages out of harm's way, and if it is not practiced as such, so much the worse. Maybe the lesson is in push-hands, seen in the fellow you push only... you missed.

Tai sabaki is the same deal on a bigger scale, I think. In karate the idea is (insofar as I understood it) that the attack grazes off you or misses entirely, rather than connecting solidly. Not as subtle as a taiji guy misdirecting a push, but underneath it all, the same idea. In general it is more like getting your whole frame out of the way. Playing dodge ball gives you something of the feel of it. Here is someone really good at it:






Short form: Maybe it would be a good idea to get out of the way...

What happened at 1.06?

GrahamB wrote:What happened at 1.06?

I see two possibilities. The first is that the captured leg is pushed forward so that it does not land properly, creating the imbalance seen. The other possibility is technically called, in karate-do, how you say, screwup.