Yi quan and qi concept

[neijin]

Dear all,
I'm reading the Andrzej Kalisz's forum. He is a Yao Cheng Guang student.

http://www.yiquan-training.com/viewtopic.php?t=11

What you say is clear, but I have one question : does "no need to talk about Qi" mean "maybe something like Qi exists but we don't take care of it in Yiquan" or does it mean "in Yiquan we believe Qi does not exist" ?

In other words, what was WXZ's opinion on Qi?

He said in "interwiew" : "within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi" and "as for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theorical point of wiew, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observations, this theory does not seem proper".
So, it seems it is not "in yiquan, we are not concerned with the old stuff of qi, meridians, etc..., maybe it is good for qigong things but we don't use it" : it is rather "in yiquan we believe qi doesn't exist" What do you think ?

His reply is quite interesting for me:

"....For me qi is a traditional chinese concept used to describe and explain various phenomena. And this concept itself has many meanings, depending in which field we are using it.....
can say to student: "Now you imagine, your head is as if supporting the ceiling, and your hips area is as if 'falling down', as if you were to sit down, you feel that your body is straightened, you are like a straight, springy bamboo, although your head is 'leading upward', you are not uprooted, because the 'hips are falling down' help you to 'root', so you have the upward and downward forces properly balanced". Now I can add, that when I was talking about 'feeling of sitting down', I could explain that in more classical way it would be said about 'qi sinking to dantian'. And when I was talking about balance of upward and downward forces it would be said "yang qi rising, and yin qi sinking". No problem for me, because I know what I would be talking about, and I could use such words, or other words. When talking about qi this way, I wouldn't think about "mysterious energy" and wouldn't wonder if this kind of energy exists or not, or if I believe in it or not. Because I know what I'm ACTUALLY talking about, how it relates to efficient use of body, to the fast but at the same time stable steps etc. But if I would say the word qi, the student would start thinking of some specific kind of energy, like gravitation, electromagnetic, and on top of this one more - qi. And then he would start believing it or not believing it. ..."

The basic idea is that Wang Xiang Zhai in his last book ("Theory of Dacheng Quan") said that the concept of Qi and his accumulation in Dantian is misleading and un-useful for the development of martial skills.

In the famous interview to WXZ I read the following.

Interviewer: "I have heard many martial artists saying: "If you do not use strength, how can you increase it? None of the ancient and modern masters neglected the enriching of the dantian qi, and only because of that, could they be successful."

Wang Xiangzhai: "The theory of using strength is the talk of laymen. There are also those who speciously support the theory of not using strength, but do not know what it means after all. One must know that not to use strength is correct, but not to use the mind is incorrect. If one uses strength then the internal organs die, the body becomes ineffective, stiff, stupid, and easy to be taken advantage of by others. In other words, it is just a disguised form of passive resistance. The idea of resisting is produced by the fear of being hit by the adversary, but in this way one is completely ignorant of the fact that the spirit has already accepted to be hit. How could one then not get hit by the adversary?

Therefore, using strength is a great taboo in combat science. As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines. Is that not a great pity!"


Similar concepts are expressed here:

http://www.martialtaichi.co.uk/articles/qi_free.php

by Joanna Zorya

What I'm trying to understand is if the development of martial skills requires that one tries to "open the small heavenly circle" and meridians.
Or if it's a waste of time.

Sorry for the long post.

What do you think?
Neijin.

[shawnsegler]

I think everyone needs to figure that out for themselves.

S

[neijin]

It's clear.
But knowing what others think is always instructive..

[klonk]

My own opinion is that the classical theory, involving qi, dantiens, meridians and all the rest, is useful but deeply flawed.

It is useful because many good observations and insights can be found in old books that use the classical vocabulary. The theory describes and sometimes successfully predicts certain phenomena and sensations encountered in martial arts training. And not just in martial arts; the theory's roots, as nearly as I can tell, are in health and medical practices, where it is used to describe a number of treatments that are effective.

It see it as flawed because it rests on a worldview at odds with my own. The pantheistic overtones and less than rigorous reasoning make it a poor description of reality, spiritual or physical. What happened is people of former times fit their observations into the framework they had, to the effect that any practical observation--this herb relieves the symptoms of that disease--became bound to the theory, sometimes by a process of forced fit.

The result is we have lots of useful information from bye-gone eras recorded in terms of a theory I do not take at face value. The trick is to disentangle the useful bits from the philosophical excess baggage.

I know from previous discussions that some people here could not disagree with me more. I would simply point out, in my own defense, that any phenomenon can be separated from the theory used to describe it. If you would like to take some modern scientific medical discovery and retrofit it into classical Chinese medicine, after the fact, you can certainly do that too.

[qiphlow]

[everything]

paraphrasing George Box and Tim Cartmell somewhat:
"all models are wrong but some are useful"

"the elite runner does not need to understand how the cardiovascular system works to use it effectively"

something like that. personally I think there is some Venn diagram overlap. Doing qigong feels healthy and gives a clear feel for a relaxed state, alpha waves, etc. Without talking about qi, that all seems useful. Doing zhan zhuang and working on "dynamically opposing forces" certainly seems useful. Having some sensation of qi circulating and sinking to the feels good. Not sure about useful.

[neijin]

The point is that for many Western people, the simple acceptance of the qi concept is difficult from a logic/rational point of view.
Moreover, in my very humble opinion, explaining things in term of qi could be very obscure and confusing.

[bigphatwong]

When John Wang sees this topic, he's going to snap all the limbs off the nearest tree and sodomize it.

[everything]

lol, sorry john. let's get back to talk of cracking. and popping, locking and breaking. and maybe headspins.

[martialartist]

if you read it carefully, seems as if Master Wang was clearly talking about "dantian qi", not qi in general.

for a person from chinese culture to simply dismiss the notion of 'qi' seems rather strange... like saying 'we are not worried about power or energy'...

as for the choice of terminology, that's a different matter

[bigphatwong]

It seems really simple to me. Qi is pretty much a given in all Chinese health and martial systems. Without it you would be dead, that's all there is to it. Yiquan is the system of the mind. Since it's the mind that leads the qi, he felt that focusing on developing and moving energy without having that mind-body unity already in place was to put the cart before the horse. So while it acknowledges the existence of qi, it's not the main focus.

Hence the saying, "you're not qualified to move yet."

[martialartist]

well qi is a chinese term only, the qi itself is not chinese

[zenshiite]

My own opinion is that the classical theory, involving qi, dantiens, meridians and all the rest, is useful but deeply flawed.

It is useful because many good observations and insights can be found in old books that use the classical vocabulary. The theory describes and sometimes successfully predicts certain phenomena and sensations encountered in martial arts training. And not just in martial arts; the theory's roots, as nearly as I can tell, are in health and medical practices, where it is used to describe a number of treatments that are effective.

It see it as flawed because it rests on a worldview at odds with my own. The pantheistic overtones and less than rigorous reasoning make it a poor description of reality, spiritual or physical. What happened is people of former times fit their observations into the framework they had, to the effect that any practical observation--this herb relieves the symptoms of that disease--became bound to the theory, sometimes by a process of forced fit.

The result is we have lots of useful information from bye-gone eras recorded in terms of a theory I do not take at face value. The trick is to disentangle the useful bits from the philosophical excess baggage.

I know from previous discussions that some people here could not disagree with me more. I would simply point out, in my own defense, that any phenomenon can be separated from the theory used to describe it. If you would like to take some modern scientific medical discovery and retrofit it into classical Chinese medicine, after the fact, you can certainly do that too.

Not sure how the theory of qi can clash with your worldview as having supposedly "pantheistic" overtones... There's no deity involved in qi theory. It's just there, a sort of lifeforce. I'm also not sure how that would contradict, with say... the idea of God being immanent in creation as well as transcendent. Let alone the link between all beings to the spirit of God. That whole "breath of life" think in Genesis... etc. We have the same thing in the Qur'an, it's says God breathed(nafas) his own spirit(ruh) into Adam. Interestingly, nafas(Arabic)/nefesh(Hebrew)/psykhe(Greek)/anima(Latin) which we tend to use for individual soul and ruh(Arabic)/ruach(Hebrew)/pneuma(Greek)/spiritus(Latin) that we use for the spiritual essence of a person all carry with them the same root meaning that "qi/chi" does. Breath, air, wind etc. Philosophically speaking, I don't think there's necessarily a clash of worldviews there that is irreconcilable.

Martially speaking, however, qi can be confusing because of the sheer number of experiences or phenomena to which it has been attached. Things which can be connected to the metaphysical theory of qi in a sort of roundabout philosophical way... but which aren't directly relatable in a coherent way. So, yeah, martially it might be best to re-arrange the language but I don't think qi should necessarily be wholly excluded from the entire body of martial knowledge or discourse.

[martialartist]

Don't forget that chi's translation "life force" is a very fitting one but perhaps misleading... this is a generic 'life', as Chi can be applied to any situation - not just the human body.

In other words, it is a generic concept which takes a lot of meaning depending on context.

There is a lot of interesting parallels with semitic mythology/theology, that is true zenshiite. remember too that self/soul is also from this root (An-Nafs - the self/soul/spirit). Ruh(Hebrew: ruach) is more of an impersonal spiritual essence , probably more akin to Chi - but Chi can be used in so much many more contexts.

Chi is like an abstraction of movement (kinetic or potential) of energy (i.e. changing from yin to yang or vice versa)

[D_Glenn]

Neijin,
That guy takes a few lines out of the whole interview to try and support is own view and to what point when we can just read the whole article for ourselves.

Your reference to J. Zorya's crazed ramblings... Please say you're weren't serious?


I think reading his whole reply will give everyone an idea of what he actually meant:


"...[13] Interviewer: What you said, Sir, is very right, and the martial arts are indeed at a loss. Would you teach everybody a simple and convenient way to succeed, that people could easily produce results with?

Wang Xiangzhai: A general idea of health preservation was already outlined above. If one is willing to do as advised, then one has already advanced halfway on the path of health preservation. If one wants to study the profound skills of combat, then one must also go through that, but if one is not an extremely foolish person or great sage, one will not be willing to do so. If one is a genius or has a character close to that of the sages, then there is no need to study all those methods. Also the methods of combat have pile standing (zhanzhuang) and trial of strength (shili) as the basis. I already narrated their general ideas above. The methods of trial of strength are too numerous, and besides, after all kinds of strengths are gained by the body, one should not think that the way of combat has been completed.

At that point one has just begun to have the possibility of studying combat. For example, how to gain the mastery of "interaction of relaxation and tension never not being correct, and the interaction of void and solid coming to equilibrium" is another problem. Anyway, after finding a teacher, the profundity or shallowness of one’s attainments indeed depend on one’s individual talent, strength, and skill, and whether one can grasp the right timing to be able to launch an attack at any moment, but without much experience in actual combat, it is hardly possible to gain it.

[14] Interviewer: I have heard many martial artists saying: "If you do not use strength, how can you increase it? None of the ancient and modern masters neglected the enriching of the dantian qi, and only because of that, could they be successful."

Wang Xiangzhai: The theory of using strength is the talk of laymen. There are also those who speciously support the theory of not using strength, but do not know what it means after all. One must know that not to use strength is correct, but not to use the mind is incorrect. If one uses strength then the internal organs die, the body becomes ineffective, stiff, stupid, and easy to be taken advantage of by others. In other words, it is just a disguised form of passive resistance. The idea of resisting is produced by the fear of being hit by the adversary, but in this way one is completely ignorant of the fact that the spirit has already accepted to be hit. How could one then not get hit by the adversary?

Therefore, using strength is a great taboo in combat science. As for the theory of the dantian qi, from the theoretical point of view, field tests, and my own perception from experience and observation, this theory does not seem proper. Within the abdomen there are the intestines, the stomach, and the liver, there is no place to fill with the qi. As for the functions of force, they are all effects of the opposite power, the explosive power, and the power of the universe combined, and exerted together with breath that makes the body bulge and undulate, open and close, and the body and spirit being integrated with the atmosphere in one's mind.

That has nothing to do with what the people call the qi of qigong. They always take a potbelly as dantian qi, that is just extremely wrong. One must know that when exerted, the strength must be issued evenly and completely. In order to be entirely free from worry and to gain strength, one should also be at leisure and natural, that is just being reasonable. The students of modern times do not understand this truth, they spend dozens of years working hard, and instead of gaining lively bodies and minds from the training, they become machines. Is that not a great pity! ..."

Rest of article: http://taijijourney.blogspot.com/2005/0 ... gzhai.html


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