Not applying moves as they appear in the form

[Dmitri]

every form move had to be so precise, move the hand half an inch here and there, adjust this and that, so the question then is if the form postures aren't techniques, why so much precision?

IME precision is (or should be) about proper body connection/energy being expressed, and it is always personalized, i.e. it's not "exactly 47.2 degrees" for everyone, there's a "personalized" deviation, whatever expresses better connection as everyone's body is different. The corrections should also be in the context of the "energy" expressed, i.e. in whatever particular fashion and direction the force is being distributed at the moment (which there could be, and more often than not there is, more than one variant of this. E.g. as the hand goes out it could be either the end of some strike from a "previous" app or an engagement/grab from the "next" app. The form is all one movement, in a sense, not a collection of movements.) Just my $0.0002

[johnwang]

it's not "exactly 47.2 degrees" for everyone,

When I trained LF in my high school years during Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for my day school class, I also helped my LF teacher to correct his night school new students on Tuesday and Thursday. There was a guy that I changed all his horizontal punches into a 45 degree upward punch. One day my LF teacher asked me why did I do that for, my answer to him was "that guy was too short".

[Dmitri]

it's not "exactly 47.2 degrees" for everyone,

When I trained LF in my high school years during Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for my day school class, I also helped my LF teacher to correct his night school new students on Tuesday and Thursday. There was a guy that I changed all his horizontal punches into a 45 degree upward punch. One day my LF teacher asked me why did I do that for, my answer to him was "that guy was too short".

Hahaha... That's awesome.

[bailewen]

The moment that you add "opponent" into the picture, the moment that your form will no longer be the same.

I can certainly agree with that and I did not mean to imply that I have any criticism of the technique in the clip you showed but the question was not "How do you like this throw?" The question was, "Do you think this is Brush Knee Twist Step".

If you are not constantly making very minor changes in your form then the form is dead.
If you are constantly making huge changes then the form is also dead. . . just in a different way.

[johnwang]

The question was, "Do you think this is Brush Knee Twist Step".

It's not. It's a move from the LF Ambush form #2. I found out that "brush knee twist step" is not suitable for catching a kick. Since for the blushing arm, all the fingers are pointing downward, there is no "hooking" function there. All the LF arm moves follow the rules such as:

- To deflect a punch, your hand hook downward.
- To deflect a kick, your hand hook upward.

It makes more combat sense to me. If I'm the person who design the Taiji form, I'll follow the same guide line as the LF system does.

[meeks]

well, I've always said that a movement may have a 'name' but that it's often just representational of what it looks like on the outside. without an opponent, it looks like you are stepping forward and 'brushing your knee and pushing'. as an example, have someone firmly hold both your wrists - now execute 'brush knee push' as a 'step in and throw'. in that particular instance there is no 'low block' and no 'push'...it just looks like it as you send the opponent onto their ass.

1> opponent grabs both your wrists - it's easy to figure out if you start trying it with both palms facing each other at waist height.

2> draw the opponent off-base by twisting your waist and drawing both hands to your side (the first part of brush knee push where you 'wind up') - the opponent should be drawn in enough that they had to step in to compensate for balance.

3> step forward at the same time your hands come forward, doing a sudden 'reversal' on the opponent's momentum - this should have them arched backwards, relying on you for balance - if they let go they'll fall.

4> make the decision..

ps - this is a more circular version of tenshin nage (heaven earth throw) in aikido

[Wanderingdragon]

The idea of absolute precision being based on a very delicate threshold for strength or weakness does not hold up to common sense scrutiny. If:

A) 'The precision threshold for acceptable structural strength is so narrow that an inch either direction compromise's the structure's integrity and renders it insufficient for combat purposes', and since we already know that the following is independently true...

B) 'The nature of real combat is so complex and chaotic that it proscribes any possible chance of being able to 1) recognize the exact opportunity to apply a given precise structure, 2) recognize such opportunity in time to actually apply such structure, nevermind 3) be able to configure oneself with the same structural precision as such posture requires', then....

C) The notion that 'the art of Taijiquan is such that each posture is intended to be used flexibly in a variety of possible tactical applications' is not logically possible, since to deviate even an inch from the precise choreography would represent an unacceptable level of structural compromise, therefore......

Either A or C is true. Both cannot be true simultaneously. Further, if A is true, then due to B being independently and unquestionably true, it must be true that the art of Taijiquan is completely useless for any realistic combat whatsoever. Since we operate out of the assumption that such a condition for the art of Taijiquan (being useless for real combat) is not the case, the evidence strongly favors that C is true instead of A, since we know that if C is true, the art of Taijiquan can still be viable for real combat situations even with B being true.

I know this backs up quite a ways in this thread, but I have to go with a simple example of common sense . In real combat , you never push someone with the back of your hand, even if you find your hands pinned against your chest crossarmed like a dead man, by the time you are able to finish pushing, you will find that you have turned your wrists to a position with the palms pushing your target, that turn of the wrist gives you the structure and power to throw your opponent away, without thinking you will have made that adjustment, you do not have the power to push with strength if your palms are facing you. Simple test let someone pin your arm to your chest , palm on your chest, try to push , now do the same while turning your palm towards you opponent. These structural perfections are in every form, as they are part of the strength of the human body. The common sense of it is that what is natural is what is stronger.

[D_Glenn]

D_Glenn,

RE: "Understand these and you cover all possibilities.". Perhaps so. That's certainly a lot more tenable philosophy for the inherently chaotic context of combat than the notion of absolute precision being a non-negotiable necessity. As a separate point, though, understanding alone of the 8 x 5 you referenced is absolutely no guarantee of being able to effectively manifest anything tactically in a real environment. I'm not directing that to you, specifically, but just tossing it out there to everybody for general information. There's a big difference between a tactic at the "Aha!" stage of new insight and that same tactic being developed to the point of spontaneous unconscious competence under duress. Generally speaking, you will still need to work your understanding of something to temper it in the fires of pressure since we will still generally fight as we train, regardless of our understanding.

"There's a big difference between a tactic at the "Aha!" stage of new insight and that same tactic being developed to the point of spontaneous unconscious competence under duress."

That sounds like the way a RBSD style would look at it but in the case of taiji isn't it essentially the exact opposite where there's an understanding that no two fights will be identical so drilling one single tactic over and over would be counter productive, hence the whole concept of push hands.

"Generally speaking, you will still need to work your understanding of something to temper it in the fires of pressure since we will still generally fight as we train, regardless of our understanding."

Also in the case of taiji and other IMA's the majority of the training is nothing like an actual fight yet they still develop fighting skills. Paraphrasing WXZ's interview again- we need to train the body and the mind, but you can still fight without the strength but will always lose without the mind. If you're under the effects of fear then you've already lost. (Which I think was your point of training under duress, to overcome fear.?) But the IMA's look at fear as something that comes from the inside of one's own body (poor kidneys and jing) and our own mind (or the central shen unable to maintain control over the 5 shens), so if it's cause is internal then it can be overcome internally via proper training (i.e.-the training that is nothing like fighting).


.

[bailewen]

The question was, "Do you think this is Brush Knee Twist Step".

It's not. It's a move from the LF Ambush form #2. I found out that "brush knee twist step" is not suitable for catching a kick. Since for the blushing arm, all the fingers are pointing downward, there is no "hooking" function there. All the LF arm moves follow the rules such as:

- To deflect a punch, your hand hook downward.
- To deflect a kick, your hand hook upward.

It makes more combat sense to me. If I'm the person who design the Taiji form, I'll follow the same guide line as the LF system does.

ha ha...so it was a trick question.

I feel much better now knowing that it is not. And btw: "the blushing arm" I bet you make all the girly arms blush.

[johnwang]

no two fights will be identical so drilling one single tactic over and over would be counter productive, hence the whole concept of push hands.

This may be needed for further discussion. In PH, you may be able to develop different "defense skill" but you may not be able to develop different "offense skill". How your opponent will attack you is not under your control, but how you are going to attack your opponent will be up to you. Since the PH is no different from the wrestling match, I don't believe you can develop different offense skills in PH just like you can not develop different throws in wrestling match. Your offense skill still depends on your solo and 2-men drills and not from your PH or wrestling match.

If one can develop all different kind of skill in PH, by applying this logic, he can also develop different kind of throwing skill (hip throw, leg block, leg lift, ...) in wrestling match, the need for solo drills and 2 men-drills will no longer be necessary.

I have seen someone wrestled for 5 years and still end with 0 offense skill. he may have good defense and not easy to be taken down, but he cannot take down anybody. You may be able to have a luck punch, but you will never be able to have a lucky throw. To be able to take someone down will require skill. To be able to not to be taken down, the PH or wrestling match may be sufficient.

[GrahamB]

+1, couldn't have said it better.
Taiji form (unlike just about any other art's form that I can think of, except maybe I Liq Chuan's) is NOT (or should not be) a "collection of techniques", -- in my understanding of it anyway, most people's mileage seems to vary on this.

I had teachers who said that, but then every form move had to be so precise, move the hand half an inch here and there, adjust this and that, so the question then is if the form postures aren't techniques, why so much precision?

cheers

Rob

Good point. I think that gets to the heart of the matter better than the other posts here.

I think one of the things about TCC is that you're meant to realise this contradiciton and think about why it's there, and work it out for yourself. It's definitely not a martial art that is all about being told what to do. Basically, I think you have to look at this using the fourth dimension - time. It's about training progression. Moving from 'form' the beginning point to 'no form' - the ending point.

How do you get from form to no form? In one sense all martial arts systems are 'answers' to this basic question. Each seems to answer in their own way. I guess Tai Chi Chuan is saying, you can't start with 'no form', and that you can't have 'no form' until you first have form.

It's an interesting philosophy.

G

[bailu]

If we're so worried about techniques being "picture perfect", how can we ever applying them with 'living' footwork?

Sure, be precise when practicing form. But when fighting, be fluid and effective.

[RobP2]

Is there a point that perhaps many of these styles were formulated in response to other styles around? To use a cliche film example, Drunken Master was a response to Eagle Claw, or whatever. IE you knew the other guys techniques (hence the need for such secrecy) so built in counters to those in your own style. I ask because every book on application I've seen from "big names" has been of the "if A steps out with right foot and attempts right straight punch, B does etc etc".
If you have Yang Sau Cheungs "Red Book" you'll know what I mean.

Is it that these styles - understandably - were formulated for a very specific time and place? That's not to say that the principles aren't sound, but that the way they are expressed and taught relates to a different set of circumstances?

Something else that for me points to this is the lack of freestyle play outside of push hands (and even then not always) from high level teachers. Off hand I can't think of any clip or demo where the attack is not pre-arranged. I don't hold with the "too dangerous" notion as a person of true high level should be able to apply control in that situation. If a person takes liberties then fair enough, but there seems little idea of "free play" going on.

cheers
Rob

[cdobe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nnwLZpqHk

[RobP2]

Thanks CDobe, to me that illustrates my point - he is working against a guy doing specific techniques against him . No-one will attack you like that!

cheers

Rob