Not applying moves as they appear in the form

[GrahamB]

Something else that for me points to this is the lack of freestyle play outside of push hands (and even then not always) from high level teachers. Off hand I can't think of any clip or demo where the attack is not pre-arranged. I don't hold with the "too dangerous" notion as a person of true high level should be able to apply control in that situation. If a person takes liberties then fair enough, but there seems little idea of "free play" going on.

cheers
Rob

What you mean about high level teachers? - there are plenty of clips of 'freeplay' going on in Tai Chi push hands on the Internet - Ma Jongbao for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0areLRL ... re=related

[RobP2]

Yep true , but I said "outside of push hands". And lets face it for the most part push hands is peng, li jai, an. Look at that CXW clip for example where the other guy didn't stick to the usual routine

[GrahamB]

Yep true , but I said "outside of push hands". And lets face it for the most part push hands is peng, li jai, an. Look at that CXW clip for example where the other guy didn't stick to the usual routine

Ah, young padawan - you forget my very own Youtube clips! Lots of 'outside of push hands' freeplay there - and of course, I AM COMPLETELY HIGH LEVEL, so no worries there.

Don't forget Shooter too - without him all our efforts would be worthless!

[D_Glenn]

no two fights will be identical so drilling one single tactic over and over would be counter productive, hence the whole concept of push hands.

This may be needed for further discussion. In PH, you may be able to develop different "defense skill" but you may not be able to develop different "offense skill". How your opponent will attack you is not under your control, but how you are going to attack your opponent will be up to you. Since the PH is no different from the wrestling match, I don't believe you can develop different offense skills in PH just like you can not develop different throws in wrestling match. Your offense skill still depends on your solo and 2-men drills and not from your PH or wrestling match.

If one can develop all different kind of skill in PH, by applying this logic, he can also develop different kind of throwing skill (hip throw, leg block, leg lift, ...) in wrestling match, the need for solo drills and 2 men-drills will no longer be necessary.

I have seen someone wrestled for 5 years and still end with 0 offense skill. he may have good defense and not easy to be taken down, but he cannot take down anybody. You may be able to have a luck punch, but you will never be able to have a lucky throw. To be able to take someone down will require skill. To be able to not to be taken down, the PH or wrestling match may be sufficient.

Quoted me out of context as that was a reply to the sentence above it. But anyway, I would say that the form is the solo drills, all the IMAs have 2-man drills, and their push-hands type drills which in my experience there has to be a constant inter-change of offense and defense or else there would be no movement at all.

I don't know about wrestling sports where it's against the rules to strike, being able to hit and strike is innate and linked to our survival, maybe some people just can't function and learn when they're forced to shut it off, there probably has to be a ton of 'drilling' and 're-programming' done to get someone to not use their instincts and only throw in order to win in the sport.

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[Chris McKinley]

Wanderingdragon,

RE: "These structural perfections are in every form, as they are part of the strength of the human body. The common sense of it is that what is natural is what is stronger.". Yes, indeed. Which is why we should be operating out of those parameters rather than any specific choreography from a form in a martial art. As a furtherance of your point, there are in fact many different configurations in which the human body can be arranged which are entirely functional for combat, some of which do not necessarily conform to canonical structure in Taijiquan forms. This last fact is, of course, further evidence in support of the flexible applications concept as opposed to the rigid choreography idea.

[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

RE: "That sounds like the way a RBSD style would look at it but in the case of taiji isn't it essentially the exact opposite where there's an understanding that no two fights will be identical so drilling one single tactic over and over would be counter productive, hence the whole concept of push hands.". Well, no....for two reasons.

1) It has nothing to do with what "style" one purports to study, it has to do with the way that human neuromotor physiology works, regardless of the physical activity.

2) I'm by no means advocating the drilling of a single tactical response over and over. In fact, that particular point is something that John Wang and I often argue about, with me often referring to that method as learning how to fight in a paint-by-numbers formulaic approach where "if the opponent does A, I respond with technique B."

What I'm referencing is the fact that one can, and usually does, experience a new insight with regard to tactical effectiveness before that new insight is fully explored and ingrained into an effcient neuromotor pattern, or engram, and before the entire pattern can be associated cognitively with the particular tactical stimulus for which it is an effective response.

RE: "Also in the case of taiji and other IMA's the majority of the training is nothing like an actual fight yet they still develop fighting skills.". I suppose that all depends upon what and with whom you train, since that is certainly not true in all cases. Even in training situations in which the majority of the training is not particularly similar to the actualities of real combat, there can still be sufficient material that is, and that serves to cross-map the skills obtained into tactically useable responses.

RE: "If you're under the effects of fear then you've already lost. (Which I think was your point of training under duress, to overcome fear.?)". Yes, exactly. The science is in fairly close accord with WXZ on that issue.

RE: "But the IMA's look at fear as something that comes from the inside of one's own body (poor kidneys and jing) and our own mind (or the central shen unable to maintain control over the 5 shens), so if it's cause is internal then it can be overcome internally via proper training (i.e.-the training that is nothing like fighting).". Yes, that is also my understanding of how IMA, and in the larger scope, TCM, looks at fear and other emotions. I agree that proper training can help to mitigate the fear response. As to how...well, there are many ways perhaps. The methods of IMA can certainly lay claim to being a time-honored approach.

What matters is not which method one uses, but that it gets done. Without it, IME, people will freeze up, both physically and mentally, regardless of how much or what kind of training they have received otherwise. I believe that if you allow for the poetic language of IMA, that's pretty much similar to what WXZ is saying more or less.

[D_Glenn]

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. "


Chris, Good post.
In the Bagua paradigm it goes into this a little where the body requirements have a direct connection to the underlying function of the organs- like mainly the kan trigram is full dantian which keeps the kidneys healthy (jing) and the Li trigram is hollowing the chest which keeps the heart and pericardium open (shen).
Cool stuff, IMO. We'll have to get into it more sometime.


.

[JusticeZero]

Seems ridiculous; the form is a way to teach you how to move, not to restrict your movements.

[GrahamB]

Seems ridiculous; the form is a way to teach you how to move, not to restrict your movements.

That's nice - I'm going to steal it.

[BruceP]

Don't forget Shooter too - without him all our efforts would be worthless!

actually, it's because of me that your efforts are worthless

I've shown plenty of clips where I've used the same movement patterns against trained opps that I practiced in my tjq solo drills. I've yet to see that from any *real, authentic* tai chi practitioner. All this talk and nobody...I mean NO BODY, has shown their tjq training in anything but pattycake. With the exception of Su Dong Chen of course.

I'd love to see any tjq dude not applying moves as they appear in the form while engaging opponents who are given the go ahead to destroy said tjq dude. It would support what I've been droning on about for years because people would realize that it's never going to look like moves as they appear in the form. They would further realize that it's not the form which manifests under pressure, but the principles and methods. The principles and methods are best practiced in solo drills which can be called into action by virtue of their simplicity. It is simplicity upon which good fighting method is built, afterall. The form is too complicated and sequential to have any combat value in terms of 'moves'.

Folks might even make the leap and begin appreciating that tjq's body-method is more readily acquired through movement drills not found in the form. While they're leaping, they might keep going, into the idea that the form refines the body-knowledge that has been gained, but doesn't necessarily create it.

It seems many taichi guys have the habit of adopting moves that look effective and claiming they're already "in taichi" - conveniently, in taichi 'one move can have a thousand applications' so pretty much everything is "in taichi" - instead of trying to figure out how a movement should correctly be applied in their style

If it doesn't manifest naturally and spontaneously, it isn't there. You can't contrive application or figure out how a move should be correctly applied in your style - it doesn't work like that. If it did, we'd see hundreds of tai chi folks holding their own against full-contact fighters. We'd even see MMAers abandoning their current training and coming over to tai chi.

Wanna fight? Forget form. Wanna play pattycake? You will look awesome applying moves as they appear in the form!

[everything]

the form refines the body-knowledge that has been gained, but doesn't necessarily create it.

great quote. i'm stealing that one.

some teachers, such as William Chen, have noted that they were only shown one move to do again and again, and were not allowed to move on until they were good at the one move. for some reason people think they should learn the entire long choreography and that is some kind of progress.

[EightExtremesBoxer]

Yeah. To put in in a Yiquan way, your intention shapes form so you get your intention done, not that your form shapes your intention so that you get your form done. Applying moves as they appear in the form sounds appropriate for a forms competition which is great if you're into modern wushu. All that doesn't mean that the applications of good practitioners don't occasionally look very similar to the ones in the forms (especially against opponents of much less caliber than they), but it also sure as hell doesn't mean your kungfu should "look like kickboxing", as the cliche goes. Do your thing.

[RobP2]

I think you are right EEB and maybe that is one reason why we sometimes see trained people coming apart and resorting to playground tactics when they lose it - the intention has suddenly changed from doing "martial arts" to wanting to knock the other guy's head off, which manifests itself as rush in hitting and grabbing. I think you have to at least touch on that mindset, or intention, in your training in order to understand how to operate within it.

[everything]

I think you are right EEB and maybe that is one reason why we sometimes see trained people coming apart and resorting to playground tactics when they lose it - the intention has suddenly changed from doing "martial arts" to wanting to knock the other guy's head off, which manifests itself as rush in hitting and grabbing. I think you have to at least touch on that mindset, or intention, in your training in order to understand how to operate within it.

I think you just described the hockey fight. Rush, grab, hit. Not bad, but I'd like to learn xingyi to channel the "rush in and end it now" intention into trained techniques.

[DeusTrismegistus]

I once did brush knee twist step exactly how it appears in the form. Although I didn't block a kick with it. The transition from each brush knee to the next was the beginning of how I did it, the front hand moved across my body parrying a punch and turned down and out to brush the knee while guiding my sparring partners arm, that opened up his chest for me to step in and palm strike. It was completely spontaneous and the power of the strike surprised me.

When it comes to precision in the tai chi form I view it as practicing what should be close to ideal movement. You are learning what the correct feeling should be and trying to ingrain that to the point that it is second nature and always present.

I also think that in the vast majority of cases applying a movement from a form will require adjustments for individual situations. However take the basic hip throw for example. Very very rarely will you be able to apply a hip throw exactly as it is practiced, with your foot and hand position relative to your opponent and using the exact entry you drill it with. That situation just doesn't happen. However you need that basic practice to learn where the proper hip position is relative to your opponent, where the ideal foot position is, how to turn your body to flip your opponent in the correct way without them falling off the side of your hip. Its only when you really know the feeling of doing all those things in the basic throw that you will be able to make the adjustments necessary to make that throw work in the non-ideal circumstance. You will feel where your hip needs to be and automatically move it there, you will feel where you feet are and automatically adjust your throw to make it still work. You have to know how to do the basic version right before you know how to adjust on the fly without thinking about it.