How many minimum drills do we need?

[johnwang]

How many drills do we need in training? I have always tried to find that "minimum set" but so far I still don't have much luck yet. The problem is very simple. If I'm good at "hook punch" then it doesn't mean that I will be good at "upper cut" by default. There are about 7 different punches, 20 different kicks, 40 different locks, and 60 different throwing principles (it can map into over 400 throws). Each principles will require different drills. A simple example that a "leg lifting" drill is completely different from a "leg biting" drill.

Lately I try to use my combo drills to replace my solo drills. This way I may be able to come up a much smaller set for my training. For example by using a front kick, round house kick, side kick combo drill, I can train all 3 kicks at the same time.

So how many "minimum" drills do we need in daily training? Around 30? 50? 100? 200? ...

[Chris McKinley]

Why the assumption that it can a) be formulated into a specific number, and b) that that number will apply equally and universally to everyone? Like you stated, someone may be good at a hook punch and not need to work that one particularly much before he gets the hang of it, though his uppercut might suck and require lots and lots of extra practice.

Instead of codifying your practice into a once-and-for-all-time set policy, why not simply judge based on the individual student and his individual ability with each given movement? After all, even after you've become competent at a given technique, don't you sometimes simply have bad days where that technique is a little off and needs more practice, or where you haven't done it in long enough that it's gotten a bit rusty?

John, I often think you're trying to codify all of combat into a simple formula where if you plug student A into style of training B, and perform set rote pattern drills C, you will get competent fighter D. While that might be a nice formula to stumble upon, I think you know as much as any of us that in reality it just doesn't happen that way. There's too much complexity, too much bad luck, and too many clever idiots for that kind of a formula to be any more than a general guideline at the very best.

Frankly, too much focus on specific numbers of repetitions tends to produce a very inefficient training method and a lot of crappy-to-mediocre fighters. Besides, it's too convenient. If you come up with a set formula with a nice impossibly coincidental and convenient number of required drill sets like exactly 100, you never have to actually use your brain and think again. You can always simply refer back to the one-size-fits-all formula and blame the student if the training doesn't produce the desired results rather than develop the skills of a teacher and learn how to tailor the training to the individual student to meet him where he is. It's a copout, IMO.

People aren't ants, they aren't clones, and they aren't drones. Individuals start with differing levels of talents and skills and they learn at individual paces and in individual ways. What one guy takes 5 years to learn can take another guy 6 months...you just never know. Bottom line: stop trying to find the holy grail of one-size-fits-all training formulas and treat people like the individual students and learners that they are. You'll get a lot further in producing people who can actually fight that way.

P.S. I'm sorry that was so harsh, John. I re-read that and it's awfully blunt. I still think it would be beneficial to you and perhaps others to consider all I wrote so I'm not removing it, but I do want to at least acknowledge that I understand you put the thread up in good faith and on topic. I know you mean well, but it sometimes seems like you're just banging your head in frustration looking for a perfect inorganic formula to capture all that is combat training when that formula just doesn't exist that way in reality. Anyway, best of luck and I hope you gain some new insights out of the thread.

[JusticeZero]

As many as it takes. I just throw new stuff out every day and tell people to improv a lot. It's the principles and the structure that's important.

[wiesiek]

shure thing, J.Z.,
but

keepin` muscle memory is equaly important
however
there is no "fixed " numbers of drills/sets
particulary if you have couple of training years under your belt
personalization
is the key word in this case, drills are the training tools
and
you may need one or many to get the job done...
/imporant:
have to know how to use each one! /

agree with Chris

[WujiRob]

I think it's an interesting and important question. Personally, I like structure, and I don't equate that with a training schedule that should fit everyone (at all). I like to think of a specific structure as one of many ways to "organize" the curriculum. I think the endeavour to create drills that contain the essence of the entire curriculum is worthwhile. Although it may not result in the holy grail of training methods, it will surely create additional insight into the material as you try to find it [include cheesy Dao quote here].

[RobP2]

7 punches, 40 kicks?? Two arms two legs and the bits inbetween. Your body's natural movement, given joint mobility, suppleness and the situation. Why straitjacket yourself?

[everything]

I think the endeavour to create drills that contain the essence of the entire curriculum is worthwhile.

the pareto principle is everywhere and it just makes sense from a time efficiency point of view. that gets me wondering what is advanced because many people say it's mainly mastery of the basics... another thread topic.

[yusuf]

infinite drills spread over a finite lifetime, but training the same core principles every day..

[RobP2]

infinite drills spread over a finite lifetime, but training the same core principles every day..

well said

[klonk]

So how many "minimum" drills do we need in daily training?

Six.

[johnwang]

Let's just take 3 punches, 3 kicks, and 3 throws to simplify the discussion:

- Jab (straight line), hook (horizontal curve), upper cut (vertical curve).
- front kick (straight line), round house kick (horizontal curve), side kick (straight line)
- leg block (side way rotation), hip throw (forward bending), inner hook (horizontal leg curve),

- How many "drills" does these 9 simple moves required in order for you to be good at all 9 moves (assume you are using the "principle" approach)?
- Are those just the basic building blocks for all MA?
- Can you not train some of those moves just because your style does not emphasis on it?

[Chris McKinley]

John,

You haven't made the question any simpler merely by paring down the number of techniques you wish to learn. RE: "How many "drills" does these 9 simple moves required in order for you to be good at all 9 moves (assume you are using the "principle" approach)?". There isn't a set number of drills that guarantee being "good at all 9 moves", whether as a one-size-fits-all or even for an individual. It also doesn't matter if you are using the "principle" approach, whatever you mean by that. There still isn't a set number of drills or repetitions that guarantee that objective. That's simply not how human neuromotor and cognitive physiology work.

You will never find the magic number because your whole premise that one exists is flawed and erroneous.

[EightExtremesBoxer]

I agree with Chris' view. There is no specific magic formula. Or if there is, adaptation and change is it. A specific individual's needs will differ and your needs will differ during different times and stages of progression. That said, I'm a firm believer in a very solid grounding in the basics. A vague method emerges then, I guess. Train whatever basics you've got in your style continuously and add in elements which complement your current training needs.

Getting more specific than that without knowing you, your teacher and your style/method is impossible.

[BruceP]

- How many "drills" does these 9 simple moves required in order for you to be good at all 9 moves (assume you are using the "principle" approach)?

One drill

- Are those just the basic building blocks for all MA?

No

- Can you not train some of those moves just because your style does not emphasis on it?

You can, and for the sake of your training partners, you should.

[Bao]

Shouldn't the answer to important questions always be "42"? ... or was it 48? Can't remember that book very clearly right now.

How many drills do you need to teach basic principles as alignment, balance and full body movement? Is "drill" the ultimate answer to solo practice, in martial arts a word equal to "42"?. Do you need more than drills?

BTW - 7 strikes and 400 throws? You can divide strikes into many different principles and combine into many different strikes as well. There are many different ways to generate punching power.
... I guess there really is a "throwing world" and a "punching world".