How many minimum drills do we need?

[johnwang]

Johnwang:... My question to you would be, do you think that solo formwork is a useful method in addition to the sanda program? If so, what do you think it trains you for that sanda, bagwork, or otherwise paired work does not? What forms would you consider useful?

The problem is the footwork designed in the form may be difficult to apply in combat. The forms were designed in such a way that you start from a position and also finish at that position and facing the same direction. For example, if you train the Taiji "cloud hands" as in the form, you may only move in one direction and not the other.

JW
"Long Form"
was designed for such purpose /everything in one set/, wasn`t it?
do you think that it doesn`t work?

It will be good for "teaching" and "learning". If you put all 60 SC principles into one form, it will be easy to pass a good package (as a book) to the next generation. But since those 60 principles may map into over 400 different comcrete moves, a long form will not be proper for "training" IMO. For example, the "hip throw" principle that train your body to bend forward and try to touch your head to your knee. Since you can use under hook, over hook, waist surround, ... You do need to use different set up (for example, hook punch for under hook, waist surround, and upper cut for over hook, ...) to train different kind of hip throws.

[chimerical tortoise]

John,

As a beginner-level student, I've found that the less that is taught, the more comfortable I am with the material. If I'm taught too fast or not clearly about what this is for, I tend not to learn that well. MA is full of different "drills" each for something, here I've copied/pasted a brief breakdown of Vygotsky/developmental psychology I wrote in another thread.


"Vygotsky:
A mediating device is a mental tool that allows the individual to become familiar with something i.e. language or behaviour they're not familiar with. Once this acquired behaviour is familiarised enough, then fossilisation occurs where you do not need the mediating device to use.

i.e. Delta airlines flight attendants are trained to deal with asshole passengers. The mediating device is to imagine the passenger having suffered a death in the family, or a week-long delay in flight, or an unexpected layover, anything that lets the attendant explain the reason for passenger's rudeness. In doing so the attendant is able to suppress anger at being treated badly. After awhile, the 'imagine' is no longer needed and the attendant automatically shunts the anger away; this is 'fossilisation' where the behaviour has been acquired and naturalised to the point where there's no need for mediating devices."



So for me, an indispensible part of practice is xiao nian tou, the mediating device that develops solo rooting, forward mentality, relax, structure... partner practice is a test of how 'fossilised' the xiao nian tou is, and partner practice itself is a mediating device before sparring/real fighting. I cannot say because I haven't tried, but it seems that many schools have similar "core" drills i.e. XY 5 elements, BG stepping, that work on a continuum to get to "combat". But I must say that I've found the simpler or shorter the form, the more you can focus on the form itself... I get intimidated by how long some forms can be and how hard it would be to fully understand it "all". If something doesn't make sense then I haven't 'fossilised' enough jibengong, and if it still doesn't make sense then I go and find someone who can explain and solve the problem I have, and find new mediating devices to tackle the behaviour I am looking at.

[johnwang]

John,

As a beginner-level student, I've found that the less that is taught, the more comfortable I am with the material. If I'm taught too fast or not clearly about what this is for, I tend not to learn that well. MA is full of different "drills" each for something, here I've copied/pasted a brief breakdown of Vygotsky/developmental psychology I wrote in another thread.

That's true. If you don't want to teach someone, you can teach him 30 moves in one hour, when he goes home, he won't be able to remember anything. The human brain is only good for 6,7,or 8 (may be 5,6 or 7, I can't remember).

[everything]

meditation + standing + form + push hands + free sparring. can that count as only 5.

[chimerical tortoise]

My purpose is to design a full Sanshou, Shanda, combat SC, or kickboxing training program. How much information should it include. Hope this detail defined goal can lead the discussion into the right direction.

Having read and respected your opinions on RSF, I know you know much more than I do so I'm not sure what you want here. So far you've suggested that (1) ti/da/shuai/na methods, (2) strategies, and (3) equipment need to be taught. How would this layout be any different from any training manual that already exists?

You can divide strikes into many different principles and combine into many different strikes as well. There are many different ways to generate punching power.

This is a very interest idea. How do you divide strikes into different principles? How many principle will be needed for the following moves (assuming that one "must" learn all those moves - skipping any of those training will not be an option)?

- vertical fist (as XingYi Beng Chuan)
- horizontal fist (as LF Tza Da)
- Hook punch (as PM Chuan Chui)
- Upper cut (as boxing upper cut)
- hammer fist (as LF hammer fist)
- side punch (as XingYi Heng Chuan)
- back fist (as Taiji turn around hammer)

I'll only talk about the straight punch from WC/VT, obviously straight line attack is a principle. But if I said that uppercut principle is contained in the same straight punch, some people would agree. If true (and it's not that big a stretch), what about the wedge, or how about the pullback effect? You yourself said that drills may contain more than one principle, but here it suggests that each of these movements have only one principle (which I think is not true).

Leading from that example, VT straight punch is not the best method unless you can also work with the rest of the xiao nian tou repitoire. XYQ pi quan is probably better understood if you do 5 elements. So do you just train the VT straight, or XYQ pi quan, would it even make sense without the accompanying set?

Maybe a different approach.
If person A was a new student to your class (Day 1), with no idea of anything, where would you start?

[johnwang]

If person A was a new student to your class (Day 1), with no idea of anything, where would you start?

That's a good example. What will you teach to your new student "by using CMA only" so they can

- punch as good as boxer,
- kick as good as MT guys,
- lock as good as eagle craw or Hapikido guys, and
- wrestle as good as SC guys, Judo guys, or wrestlers?

It's not easy to achieve all those goals, so what will be the best solution?

[wiesiek]

beggining seems to be easy:
learn body principles
and
how to keep it in motion

hard part is:
return to this basic even from the most "advanced" level
when you alredy able to:
- punch as good as boxer,
- kick as good as MT guys,/and important- able to take THE punch and THE kick /
- lock as good as eagle craw or Hapikido guys, and
- wrestle as good as SC guys, Judo guys, or wrestlers

[johnwang]

It's very easy to just train boxing and ignore the rest part of the world. If you want to train boxing, Judo, Hipkido, MT, TKD all at the same time, you will find out that you may have problem to design a good training program for yourself. When you hit on your heavy bag, you think you should work on your throwing dummy. When you train your 2 men drills, you think you should train your single head and double heads. I never had this problem when I trained LF only. The moment that I started to train SC, I found out that both styles just contain too much information to be trained effectively at the same time. LF has over 30 forms (include weapons), SC has over 60 principles and 400 throws. I have given up a lot of drills training such as tornado kick, jumping double kicks, heel kick, crescent kick, ... but I just cannot give up hook punch, toe push kick, leg block, shoulder lock, ...

[wiesiek]

there is no easy way,
solution is to train things which will possibly "fill the gap" ,
when i get "not so bad" judo level, i started kiokuschin without quitin` the judo
didn`t had problems with training randori and ne waza in the mornig and kicking/puching later in afternoon
well...
when i was young, I had the time to spend 3-4 h. a day only for trainings
however
right now i realized that speakin` of real not sporty enviroment, I lack in "connecting skills" i.e. swichng fluidly from punchig/kicking into throw
so today
C.C. is the best solution as a "fili`n the gap" component for me
`cause i dont care about ne waza any more

[wiesiek]

so
answer:
we needs as much drils as is needed to get the job done
is truth
but
bottom line and tricky part is, that "the job" varry from person to person like body abilitys etc.

[chimerical tortoise]

If you want to train boxing, Judo, Hipkido, MT, TKD all at the same time, you will find out that you may have problem to design a good training program for yourself.
...
I never had this problem when I trained LF only. The moment that I started to train SC, I found out that both styles just contain too much information to be trained effectively at the same time.
...
LF has over 30 forms (include weapons), SC has over 60 principles and 400 throws. I have given up a lot of drills training such as tornado kick, jumping double kicks, heel kick, crescent kick, ... but I just cannot give up hook punch, toe push kick, leg block, shoulder lock, ...

I think that most people in the present don't have as much time to train. Hence specialisation in a specific discipline.

Does LF and SC share similar jibengong? i.e. in/out crescent, front, kicks, waist rotation, mabu?

[johnwang]

Does LF and SC share similar jibengong? i.e. in/out crescent, front, kicks, waist rotation, mabu?

- Bend your head down to touch your knee.
- Kick your leg back and pointing to sky.
- Spin your body along your body axes.
- Hook your leg back horizontally, 45 degree upward, 45 degree downward, ...
- ...

do not exist in LF training. There are big different between the striking arts and the throwing arts.

[wiesiek]

so
do we need brand "new" system ?

do you think John, that the old one like SC or ju jitsu didn`t cover striking AND throwin`art sufficiently?

in my opinion all what we relly need is set of forms/katas/ which will teach how to connect different technicals elements,
preffarably with the open architecture...

anyway, something like this come out from my trainings experience...

[johnwang]

wiesiek, you are 100% correct there. You have just picked the right words that I have tried to find for a long time. "Open architecture", an architecture that any MA style can use. Excellent terms indeed!

We need an "open architecture" that we can "plug in" any kind of kicks, punches, locks, and throws. This "open architecture" is built on one single principle and that's "taking your opponent down ASAP and finish with a strike if needed (sound like MMA right?)". That "open architecture" should not belong to any style but should be above all styles. Besides working on "How to develop an internal body", we should also work on "How to integrate kick, punch, lock, and throw". This is why when Interloper suggested me to investigate "how to apply internal in the throwing arts", I just have to honestly responsed to her that my interest is in the "integration" and not in the "maximum efficiency" at this point time of my life.

IMO, We will need a new set of drills such as kick, punch, arm control, throw, ground strike that use kick to set up a punch, use punch to build a bridge, use bridge to set up an arm control, use arm control to execute a throw, and use throw to set up a ground strike (kick to the head, elbow to the throat, ...). As far as I know, those kind of drills just don't exist in any MA systems on this planet.

SC contains straight punch (diagonal strike), hook punch (neck surround), upper cut (elbow lock) but it does not contain, horizontal reverse punch, hammer fist, back fist, and side punch (XY Heng Chuan). SC contains leg sweep, leg hook, ... but does not contain side kick, round house kick, spin kick, ...

After I have picked up those missing elements from other styles, the SC that I'm training can no longer be called as SC. That's why the name of Chan Chiao (combat SC) is used instead. You may call that CC as a "new system" that was born in the past 30 years. Actually, CC is no more than just "a system to train Shanshou or Shanda". If you add the ground game then it's exactly equivalent to today's MMA but using CMA approach instead (except the ground game may have to come from BJJ). This is why when someone called me anti-MMA, my response to him was "I may be the last person on this planet who has anti-MMA attitude". When I was interesting in the MMA approach back in the 70th, the word MMA was not even invented yet.

[DeusTrismegistus]

For drills I would divide them into specific skill sets. Striking related, and throwing related, and "finishing move" perhaps.

For striking you must learn proper alignment. Alignment of the hand is most important and within san shou the fist is most common. So develop alignment first with straight punches, which will mostly carry over to all other punches. You need to teach distance. First they must learn how long they are, then how to judge how long an opponent is. They must learn timing. Stance work is important and footwork, training how to use different stances and how to move in them and between them.

Throwing related you have entering, contact points, leverage, breaking structure, and taking balance.

Finishing move you have following, set up, and positioning.

I could list more for striking and throwing but they should work themselves out. If you start with one throw like the hip throw, it will make it easy for students to later learn all the variations like vertical lifting, hip throw with leg blocking, leg blocking. Then learning one hooking throw like inner hook and getting really good at that will map to outer hooking and shaving easily. Then learning leg blocking helps map to hand blocking, pulling etc. You spend time on one technique and get good and the rest will come quickly later rather than trying to learn them all at the same time.

I would then match the basic technique to the skills that need practiced. With striking you would do jab cross, both straight punches. Drill in the air slowly for alignment and relaxation, test on a heavy bag. Train distance on a heavy bag first, learn how long you are. Then train on focus mitts and learn how to judge distance, that also can begin timing work. With hip throw you work basic alignment with paired work. Then work different enterings from having your grips. Then work on getting the grips or wraps seperately. Then put it all together.

Strikes can all be broadly mapped to thrusting or swinging. Thrusting is like jab, cross, reverse punch, straight punch, front palms, thrust kick, front heel and ball kick. Swinging would include all knees and elbows, ridge hand, most knife hands, forearm strikes, hook punch, uppercut, roundhouse, crescent, hook.