what is advanced?

[everything]

the minimum drills thread got me wondering "what is advanced?". many people say it's mastery of the basics. do you agree?

something strawdog said on the don angier thread seems to sum it up differently in a way that mirrors how people often consider taiji to be "advanced":

The art is not the list of techniques. He said that Yanagi Ryu is the set of principles. He said that if I fully understood the principles I could figure out the rest.

if all of that is true, shouldn't people who have learned the list of techniques focus on the core set of principles? shouldn't they do that their entire time studying the curriculum from basic to advanced student? if they're a beginner, they focus on the core. intermediate, they learn the full list. advanced, they understand how the core principles are always expressed in that list and in other what-if scenarios?

[RobP2]

In a word - yes. Study the principles, don't focus too much on syllabus or technique. Advanced is getting home in one piece.

[Chris McKinley]

That's what I did, and what I would do even more stringently if I had it to do all over again. In fact, I probably wouldn't bother learning well over 90% of the material I've ever learned as a martial artist. I would instead focus on the material that has yielded the most and made the most difference in my ability and development. Since "the full art" is an arbitrary notion about a man-made abstract collection of physical movements, I wouldn't really care.

Working on exercises, forms, drills and scenarios that directly improve my fighting ability, even with the same time investment I used in actuality, would still allow me some time to explore/test my material against an even wider array of approaches to fighting, including adding grappling to my arsenal at a much earlier point in my training history.

[Juan]

Advanced is when you can hi someone with your ki and also you have the power of flight. Also, you have a large penis. BTW I am very advanced if you know what I mean.

[everything]

lol

Chris, thanks, I'd consider myself intermediate at best, so trying to follow that recommendation. Part of the problem is that you don't know what's wheat and what's chaff until later and not everyone who tries to tell you agrees.

[johnwang]

In a word - yes. Study the principles, don't focus too much on syllabus or technique. Advanced is getting home in one piece.

How many principles are we talking about here? Can you cover jab, hook, upper cut in 1 principle. When you stand in front of a heavy bag, can you just repeat 1 drill and get effective on jab, hook, and upper cut?

Will you not train "upper cut" or "round house kick" just because your style does not emphasis on it? Or will you train it as "general offense skill"?

[Chris McKinley]

everything,

That's indeed true. It's also exactly why you need to test all material yourself. I would, and do, tell new people a few of the following things:

1) Most importantly, know what your objective is for training, as specifically as possible. It's okay for that objective to be garden variety simple, but it needs to be clear. If your goal is only to have better health or experience another culture, so be it. Just be honest about it. If your goal is real fighting ability to save your own or someone else's life in a real life-or-death combat context, your goals must be all the more clear and you will be forced to make decisions unpopular with the orthodoxy of traditional martial arts, no matter the style.

Keeping in mind that just because something doesn't work well for you doesn't mean it doesn't work, and that something that works that isn't technically in your art's official canon still works, go out there and bravely begin testing your material. At first, you won't even know how to test it objectively and correctly, and you'll spend a few years getting your ass repeatedly handed to you as well. This is all good. Learning the many ways to get your ass kicked is a good way to learn how to do it to someone else. It's a far more valuable lesson that way than spending yet another five minutes running through some form. Thankfully, you don't have to choose.

Eventually, after repeatedly and regularly testing your material, it will become clear to you what works for you and what does not. It will also become clear what might not work really well now, but could get there with more development. It will also become clear what won't work, at least for you. This isn't an epic single moment of decision, so don't get in a big hurry to make it. You make it everyday, a little at a time, with each new experience. Doing this over enough time, at least several years, something else will happen. You'll learn how to fight. Your stuff will be honed through time and it will be pressure-tested against a variety of opponents and fighting styles.

Once you've done this, you will be prepared to pursue whatever you want martially. If you want to try MMA for the first time, you will be years ahead of your other first-day peers. If you pursue a career that requires such skills, yours will already be trusted through experience. If you want to pursue a health-oriented training regimen, nothing is stopping you, and you are likely in pretty good condition anyway. If you simply want to get home safely to your family and friends, your ability to do so is greatly increased compared not only to the untrained, but to other martial artists who haven't trained in this way.

[Chris McKinley]

John,

RE: "Can you cover jab, hook, upper cut in 1 principle.". Not necessarily, but then I don't need to. Those aren't principles, they are specific techniques.

RE: "When you stand in front of a heavy bag, can you just repeat 1 drill and get effective on jab, hook, and upper cut?". No, but then, why would I? It's easy enough to train those specific techniques either in isolation or in combination with each other.

RE: "Will you not train "upper cut" or "round house kick" just because your style does not emphasis on it?". Probably not, at least if I'm like most martial artists. There's also a chance that I chose a style that doesn't require those techniques because I don't want to use them. Now, it might still be wise to train against them in order to be prepared for someone else using them, but I don't necessarily need to train them myself.

[EightExtremesBoxer]

Advanced is kicking your ass.

[everything]

lol yes.

[Bao]

Advanced? I think gaining confidence with your practice and develop confidence with your art is the only things I can think about. The rest is just different levels of development. When you get to another level, you don't consider what you did one year ago "advanced", even if you thought so one year ago. You are always advancing and continuing to advance, but without confidence no level will have a real practical use.

[johnwang]

but I don't necessarily need to train them myself.

Now I understand exactly what you are talking about. If "completeness" is not your concern then you will have less problems to worry about.

[Chris McKinley]

It's not about "completeness" either. If I've got another tool in my toolbox that will do the same job as the uppercut or the roundhouse kick and I can use it effectively, then in regard to those techniques, my style isn't incomplete. It's just different. Now, I happen to like a good uppercut, so I still keep that one around, but I've got other tactics that are similar that will do the very same job if I don't want to use it. I'm not as fond of roundhouse kicks for non-sport combat, so I don't bother with that one for much more than low-line destructions these days. Still, I did start out in TKD many years ago and competed full-contact, and the roundhouse was certainly a staple of my toolkit in those days, so I can appreciate what it can do.

Still, the choice to include and develop any given technique is solely up to the individual martial artist. If he likes it and can make it work, great. If he doesn't or can't, and something else works better for him, then that's fine, too.

[wiesiek]

if you ask about
"advanced technique"-
when you are able set up position such way that next opponents move leds him into oblivon

[SPJ]

we may look at the advancement at 2 levels at least.

1. principle level

a. we practice basic or essential moves well. yes this is entering level or our building block or learning alphabet or alpha and beta.

b. we build several basic moves into combo, in the logic of covering the leaks or opening created by the previous move. we understand the disadvantage created or shortcoming when we do a certain basic move from a.. we know both yin and yang of the move.

c. we practice counter to our basic move in a.

d. we practice counter to c. (we advance from a. so level d will be advanced level)

2. form or tao lu practice consideration

for example in Ba Ji

a. xiao ba ji, we practice to gain skills in basic or essential move. (learning the skill or si qi shu)

b. da ba ji, we practice to know the tactics and strategy (guan qi yi. gazing at arts)

c. ba ji lian huan, we practice ai bang ji kao (closing, nearing, push and kao). these are skills that we focus on the style or make the flavor or distinction of the style.

c would be advance level meaning we have to do a and b first and finally to do c.

there are more definition or consideration

just mention 2 aspects.

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