Started incorporating Capoeira back into my sparring

[Juan]

Lately I started incorporating more and more Capoeira kicks into my sparring and they have been working tremendously well! Just this Monday for the hell of it I decided to try a high spinning kick (forgive me but I forgot the name) and to my surprise (and my sparring partner's as well) it landed dead on! That was pretty sweet. A little while ago I started incorporating (or is it encorporating? ) a spinning back heel kick that works pretty well too but MT has the same kick as well so I can't say it's pure Capoeira. It's a pretty cool experience though to be able to go back to my base art and apply some of it's techniques in sparring. Especially since most people don't think such kicks are effective (not that I would try to do a spinning back heel kick in tha streetz).

[everything]

that is cool. to me, capoeira has the highest "cool" factor, possibly not the most practical art, but certainly seems cool. that reminds me that Eddie Gordo was my favorite Tekken character.

last night in bjj, we worked on a half guard sweep that basically uses the breakdance flare movement [edit: I think it's windmill, not flare] or the kungfu flaring get-up. not the easiest move but sure is fun. makes me want to learn that kungfu rebound trick.

putting capoeira together with bjj would be interesting. there is already the cartwheel pass and that kind of thing. some kind of capoeira entry into armbar would be cooler than the normal flying armbar. at least, that would be a cool movie scene.

[I-mon]

how's that rasteira going Juan?

[Juan]

You know, it's hart to find the timing for a rasteira from a Muay Thai stance. I've tried a couple of times and it didn't work out to well. From the MT stance the MT sweep works best. The body mechanics of the capoeira rasteira seem to work best from the ginga (at least in my experience).

[I-mon]

ok fair enough. i think maybe the one foot back in the ginga we use in angola is sometimes close enough to a boxing stance for most of the moves from both arts to be available. i don't really use spinning kicks though, and my thai kick is rubbish these days...more into the elbows and knees and vingativa-rasteira-cabecada. now that you've done muay thai for a while you might get a totally different perspective on the close game of capoeira angola.

[Juan]

Hey I-mon,

I think this conversation is going to get really interesting. Let me ask you, do you do any sparring with folks using Angola? When I practiced Capoeira I absolutely loved Angola but always saw Regional as the more practical, or perhaps more martial of the two styles. I enjoyed Angola because it was more artistic and although we got into it a bit sometimes in the roda I couldn't really see it used in actual fighting. In the rodas fechadas I participated in, it was almost always Regional stuff happening. And even if it was a roda fechada for Angola it was still in the context of the slow moving game with occasional bursts of speed. Do you have any clips of it being used outside of the roda context? BTW I don't mean for this to be offensive or to say that Angola is not a valid martial art or anything. Just voicing my curiosity.

[I-mon]

Hey man.

I haven't sparred with gloves on for a couple of years now but am looking forward to getting back into it very soon. These days I go to open mat sessions with some guys who do judo, BJJ, and greco-roman wrestling, and use whatever body skills i've managed to get from my mixed up training, which is mostly IMA and capoeira angola. in my experience the angola is way more practical, but the funny thing is that all of the things which are practical are the things which are mostly hidden to people watching who don't understand what's happening beneath the surface in angola. elbows, knees, rasteiras, cabecada (same mechanics as the shoot and single leg takedowns), vingativa and boca de calca (a version of double leg takedown), plus the strength and mobility and ability to flow in and out of all the positions really low to the ground.

unless you've played for a decent amount of time with any pure angola people (who don't play regional) from bahia, chances are you've never actually experienced genuine capoeira angola. it's nasty.

[JusticeZero]

..Angoleiro sou eu..
Myself, I have a hard time seeing most of the Regional I see out there as having much martial application. Classical Regional, sure, but there's not all that much of that out there. Jump in, throw three kicks in the general direction of the other guy, have the game bought, throw another two kicks, be bought out, all at a range that allows two kicks to cross without touching? Yawn. They fold pretty easily in a serious game, quite often. Also, they often tire easily, even in the high games they prefer. Not enough softness, and most of them have some serious burned in predictable habits. I played a Regionalista long ago who, for instance, would always finish an esquiva by switching legs and role out in negativa the same way. Throw a kick, step in next to them, she knocked herself over.
Vingativa is fun; the only other people i'm aware of who regularly throw that around are Bagua people.

Need to find more people to play with, alas. I'm rusty.

[Juan]

That's the thing guys. That it's all played in the context of the jogo. Have you guys done hard sparring using the techniques against guys from other styles? I know they are useful but I wonder how many Capoeiristas try it out. I'd love o get some sparring in with an Angoleiro just to see how it would work. I might have to go back to my old Capoeira buddies and see if they are down with some friendly but hard sparring. I know in a jogo Angoleiros would twist me up, but in sparring I'm not trying to do all the typical movements I would do in a jogo.

[nianfong]

spinning crescent kick is an "armada" (sp?) right?
some of the capoeira kicks are definitely practical, and a lot of the jinga and footwork is actually very practical as well. It's the crazy upside down stuff that isn't as practical. and I think most of angola is actually quite practical when their serious.

cool on ya man.

justicezero: what's a vingativa?

[Juan]

Ah yes! An Armada! Sorry, I've been out of Capoeira for a while and I forgot alot of the names for the moves.

[I-mon]

i think the big point is that in sparring there is no need to ginga - the ginga is for the roda, moving under the rhythm of the berimbau. in sparring what comes out are the skills which the ginga trains: the ability to forcefully drive the body forwards, sideways, backwards, or diagonally of either leg at any time without having to take an extra second to load up the weighted leg; the ability to twist the body and suddenly rise or drop at any moment to avoid a blow; the instinct to quickly close the gaps in one's defences and with the knees and elbows and rotations of the body; and the desire to take the opponents feet out from under them using the rasteira or the vingativa if their feet ever enter a certain area of one's personal space.

the other really big one is the cabecada - any decent angoleiro will basically have antenna coming out the top of his head always seeking the opening for a headbutt to the face from close range or a whole body spearing headbutt into the chest and stomach which as i said is exactly the same body mechanics as the shoot or single/double leg takedown.

for some reason not many practitioners of other arts practice close range headbutts to the face, and so they are usually not ready for them.

as i said, i'm able to use loads of this stuff in grappling and stand up wrestling against guys who are welled trained in judo, BJJ and greco roman, and the most sparring i've done in recent years was with my friend in japan who is a pro MT fighter and i could usually dominate him in close.

i think relaxation comfort in the different ranges is key - i've done a bit of boxing and MT so i am somewhat comfortable with basic punching and kicking and i love elbows and knees; i've done some jujutsu so i've got some idea of throwing and locking and which parts of the body really hurt when you poke or hit them and i can roll on the ground in all sorts of ways; i've done a fair bit of IMA so i'm harder than most people to unbalance and throw; and i've done lots of capoeira angola so i'm pretty comfortable in all the ranges between the ground and standing completely upright with one or both hands on the ground.

so if i'm wrestling and i plant my back leg into the ground and shift my centre of gravity around to not get thrown am I doing capoeira or bagua? if i'm sparring and I avoid a punch by moving my body....if someones face is open and i move my elbow towards it?

you get what i mean? expecting capoeira in a fight to look anything like the jogo is equivalent to expecting bagua people to walk in circles around their opponent or yiquan people to fight their opponents by standing still.

[I-mon]

fong the vingativa is where you step behind both of the opponents legs with your arm and body in front of them, and throw them with your back- similar to part the wild horses mane or one of the single palm change throws.

[JusticeZero]

Have you guys done hard sparring using the techniques against guys from other styles?

I have. The problem is that the power generation makes "controlled" power=lower speed, which slows everything down to at least some extent; meanwhile, the other guy is moving at 130% of top speed because they don't need to commit power and can just flick around. We toss a kick fast enough to not have it ignored and get griped at that we "have no control", our basic stance gets us yelled at that we're 'running away', and they make us wear gloves that make us have to do our basic footwork balanced precariously on our knuckles. Then they're wide open for elbows, cabecadas, and other things that are pretty fundamental to our movements that aren't allowed in their ruleset.
Go into any sparring situation with a third of your techniques removed and the rest reduced to 30% speed and see how well YOU do.
My teacher has had pretty decent luck sparring with some MMA types. I would myself if I had any money to spare to pay the dues at the MMA place in town; they're a bit spendy.

[JusticeZero]

spinning crescent kick is an "armada" (sp?) right?
some of the capoeira kicks are definitely practical, and a lot of the jinga and footwork is actually very practical as well. It's the crazy upside down stuff that isn't as practical.
justicezero: what's a vingativa?

Frankly, I consider an armada (spin kick) to be less practical than a lot of the "crazy upside-down stuff". It's not bad when you're using it as part of something else that has them twisted around so they walk into the kick, but as a standalone, it's uninspiring. I can hammer people into the ground in ways that would make an Aikidoka blush with the footwork involved in some of that "crazy upside-down stuff".

Vingativa is a takedown where you step behind the other person with your feet just behind and outside of theirs, leaning forward to put your ribs and elbow into their chest, then turn to a forward stance and scissor them over your thigh. Bagua does it too, but I haven't seen anyone else do the throw in a very similar way.

Ginga is a response to a rhythm. In a roda, there's always a rhythm to respond to. In a fight, you'll have to wait until the other guy gives you one to play with.