Form bitching

[GrahamB]

With all the bitching about forms recently on the forum I'm wondering...does Capoeira have solo forms? If not, why don't Capoeira people bitch constantly about the errors of form training?

Does Aikido have forms? Possibly... I'm not sure, but they're not big on them are they... why aren't Aikido people bitching about the foolishness of fixed form training?

What about Kali or other stick fighting systems? Do they have forms? If not... ah, you get the picture.

[Juan]

Nope no forms in Capoeira. I don't understand your question. Why would a Capoeirista bitch about the errors of form training when they don't do forms? When I was practicing Capoeira I could not speak on form training as I did not know the benefits or draw backs. It was just a different form of training to me.

[nianfong]

capoeira has individual techniques that can be comboed and trained individually. I don't think there are formal sets.
judo has no fixed form training for individual techniques. This is why their throws usually aren't as nice as SC throws .

[Bao]

Another question should be: what role does form practice play in a style? Is form practice the same regardless style?

In southern styles, form seems to be the real money maker for the teachers. Choy Lai Fut especially seems to be excellent for someone who wants to become a professional teacher. As soon as you remember one form for your graduation, you forget another one. Ingenious to have 200 forms for one single style I say.

[I am...]

capoeira has individual techniques that can be comboed and trained individually. I don't think there are formal sets.
judo has no fixed form training for individual techniques. This is why their throws usually aren't as nice as SC throws .

Older Judo does have kata, albeit short ones, from what I recall. That doesn't necessarily mean that most judo guys are learning all their throws by spending 90% of their time on kata training however.

[nianfong]

they are usually 2-men kata, for a few throws in a row. not one-man forms for refining the power/technique.

[GrahamB]

Nope no forms in Capoeira. I don't understand your question. Why would a Capoeirista bitch about the errors of form training when they don't do forms? When I was practicing Capoeira I could not speak on form training as I did not know the benefits or draw backs. It was just a different form of training to me.

Yes - that's my point.

[bigphatwong]

Modern Arnis has the Anyos (largely due to the Shotokan influence) and Silat has Jurus and
Langkas. Different arts structure these things differently. Not all arts have forms, but they all have drills, which is where's it's all at as far as I'm concerned. I was taught that the key to any art can be found in the drills.

Forms are just a way to catalog the myriad of drills and principles of movement in an easy to remember format. To me they are like pants... when you unzip them, the good stuff is revealed.

That's why I love Hsing-i. You have five root motions that you can apply to just about anything. That's about all I can handle in terms of rote memorization. I've never been much of a paint-by-the-numbers guy anyway.

[Joe L.]

Forms are just a way to catalog the myriad of drills and principles of movement in an easy to remember format. To me they are like pants... when you unzip them, the good stuff is revealed..

Problem being, unlike forms, everyone can naturally unlock the usefulness of what is inside the pants by themselves once unzipped.

With forms, unless you are shown what each move is about (either how to apply technique or what principles they represent), they don't do you much good IMO. But once you are shown what each bit is about or representing, you can break it all down (or hopefully be forced to learn each piece before moving on) and train it at length, so collecting too many forms won't be a problem.

[Wanderingdragon]

i think Joe's onto something , as well as Bao. The issue is Teachers that can tell you the true applications of authentic forms, those would be the Masters one would want to study under , anyone can teach a form , you could call them dance instructors , but the hows and whys well ... think about it ... this is 2009 when were these forms created

[I am...]

From my viewpoint, the "true application" is the one you can do well. It likely has very little to do with what your teachers "true application" of a movement is, unless you are alike in build, size, temperment, and experience. On the other hand, a good teacher should be aware of several viable applications of a movement, or reasons for doing said movement.

[BruceP]

The tai chi forms I learned contain tactical ideas rather than specific applications. If anyone asked to see an application from the people I studied with, they'd be adivised to go learn tai chi from someone who would sell them applications.

[somatai]

forms as i understand them are just linked together series of solo actions so even if you do train in a form based art like tai chi(which i dont) you still have to know the individual pieces intimately before you string them together to constitute a form....learning an individual action is learning its energy and particular physical demand, then you can link it to other moves you have taken through the same process

[everything]

lately I am mainly doing bjj which doesn't have forms but does have the yoga, ginastica naturale, prasara, weird crab walk, monkey walk, and what have you.

those aren't forms but more to drill varieties of movements. seems analogous to free form circle walking to me, but not analogous to a long tai chee form.

[Ian]

IMO there's nothing at all wrong with forms.