Form bitching

[JusticeZero]

does Capoeira have solo forms? If not, why don't Capoeira people bitch constantly about the errors of form training?

No... why would I complain about forms training? -I- don't do them, so why should I devote perfectly good attention to fussing about them? All the complaining about forms, for the most part is from people who do forms. I just roll my eyes at unusually egregious absurdities like the idea that if it's not in the form at that exact angle, you're not supposed to do it. Even then, it's at the level of 'snarky side comment in passing'.

[Josealb]

Well, if you consider a form to be a method or series of methods string together, according to synergies in regards to what is trained by them or how they are applied ...

...I would bitch about a method that's supposed to train something specific, but done incorrectly because of lack of knowledge of what its supposed to train. Some people confuse methods with techniques, and just like to make up forms for the sake of it, unfortunately.

[nianfong]

in martial arts, like any other art form, you must have a solid foundation in "the classics" before you can truly embark on "the modern." Just like picasso could do realism like nobody's business, and then went and invented cubism.

if you have no solid understanding of the past, you will not have a solid understanding of the present. forms are passed down to us from the past--learnings and methods that worked for people before. We must understand them first before we can truly move into the modern. Of course with painting, you have to also have a basic understanding of composition and balance in your design. For MA, this is a basic understanding in how to spar and fight--control of centerline, initiative, positioning, footwork, etc.

WIth this analogy, boxing, judo, and other arts with no "forms" are simply training basic design in a certain style, going straight to the canvas, and training strokes and techniques right on the canvas in freeform design. CMA trains the brush strokes like with calligraphy, and then moves on to grass script and brush painting. I've always been fond of the language analogy, because what's interesting is, how various MA are trained is often analogous to how the mother tongue of that MA is learned.

-Fong

[Areios]

forms are not bad, but everything is on balance. If you train it to much your form is goint to be great but the aplication and free useges are going to reduce.

[RobP2]

but the hows and whys well ... think about it ... this is 2009 when were these forms created

Actually that's a good question. There are some TJQ teachers who use forms as basic "body builders" then move on to solo drills. I've also seen some who say you just practice the 4 energies in 5 directions. I was also told once that the more succesful the school the longer and larger the form (bigger courtyard to move around in!).

Did "form", at least in TJQ, once refer to a posture rather than a set of linked movements?

[mrtoes]

When I look at the things I've been studying for the last few years, the things I've found to be the most use both in terms of martial application and in general life have often been the simplest things. I spent a while doing the first bagua palm change, and after that just hsing i five elements, and I feel these have left me with something. However some of the more extended forms I have learnt (bagua) have fallen a bit flat for me. The style of hsing i I now study has quite a few forms, but the application is made /very/ apparent as the form is learnt. Now when I practise the forms I feel/imagine the application, and then when I go back to the application or similar movements I can feel that practise has meant something.

For me personally I have to feel clear about what I am developing with a form in terms of body movement and application. I feel a lot of forms, at least the way they are taught, seem quite a long route to developing skills, and I often wonder whether the essence could often not be stripped down to a simple exercise. But that's nothing against forms per se, there are plenty of living examples of people who show that this style of training can work!

Of course, this is just my personal feeling, your mileage may vary

[kreese]

Great analogy, Fong. I found that learning Chinese really taught me a lot about Chinese culture and how Chinese martial arts are structured and taught.

[johnwang]

bitching about forms ...

You should not bitch about forms if you have not learned more than 30 different forms. If you did then you may prefer to spend your time somewhere else instead.

[wiesiek]

c.
judo has no fixed form training for individual techniques. .

dissagree
Nage No Kata - Basic Forms of Throws
formal forms from 1degree black belt up

dont know about s.c
cause didn`t met
S.C.in real yet.

[wiesiek]

however
regardles that Nage no kata are not so complicated forms /4 throws in one set/, they are primary train for "belt upgrade" in most of the dojos.
+
i like S.C. very much /still theoretically /
as better rounded MA system than judo /if ground game is not you concern/
kinda of chinese ju jitsu wthout ne waza
but
judo is safer to train with full power... and we are landing in MMA /started to steer into Chris thread /