the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

In the Shaolin version of SIngle Whip (as well as Chen taiji version, the way I was taught from Chen Fa Ke's line via Pan Yunteh) the ends of the thumb, index, and middle finger are touching - this is to train strength in the adductor policis for the qin na maneuver (you should be able to distract or open the wrist joint of the opponent by exerting force between your thumb and index or middle finger). We used to train with lu dou (a small, hard green bean), squeezing it with the tips of the three fingers. The application was to grasp the opponents wrist (or the hegu point of the thumb and the base of the little finger) and squeeze and pull down as the other hand pushed /thrust and torqued in the opposite direction on the opponents elbow, shoulder joint or floating ribs. More of a set up for a dislocation and throw than anything else.

Ken's app is the same as it taught in Chenjiagou in PH - but the entry to it is from an arm drag, so the "hook" hand catches the opponent above the tricep, not the wrist. Personally, I have found this much more effective than grabbing the wrist, as the upper arm (root) is far easier to capture than the more mobile lower arm (branch).

Oh, and FWIW, I have been taught that all fingers touch the thumb, and have never really questioned it in great depth. The app described above does not require the fingers of the hooking hand to touch AT ALL.

Andy_S wrote:Oh, and FWIW, I have been taught that all fingers touch the thumb, and have never really questioned it in great depth. The app described above does not require the fingers of the hooking hand to touch AT ALL.

Yeah I was taught the same thing, i.e. all fingers touch thumb. This was for the wrist release I mentioned. However that's the whole thing about interpretation and what you actually are thinking of using a particular movement for. Hand postures, arcs, intention and contracting or expanding movements are all dictated by intended usage.

I've never seen this technique done with only three fingers touching as you describe. it's always all 5 fingers touching. like graham and others have explained, it's not a strike on that hand, it's a grab. and as bao says, it's more flexible as a "hook".

Fong,

Its main and signature function may well be a grab ( even though, I tend to use the tai ji version of eagle claw for grabs); however, it can also be used as a strike to the rear, an upward strike with the "anterior" portion of the wrist, and as I mentioned, a wrist realease (using the all fingers touching approach).

The three finger approach works well as a strike with the outside of the hand (pinky side) because the fingers that are not touching afford a more compact shape for the hand as it curls into a rounded hand posture; so the palm forms a similar shape to a tile hand in Bagua.

Edit: playing around with it either five or three fingers can work with the rear palm strike.

I've heard of all of those except the wrist release. What I also wonder about is what happened to this hook shape in single whip in the Wu Hao and Sun styles. Also why is Sun looking at his right hand in photos of the posture where Yang Cheng Fu looks at his left hand.

...single whip doesn't necessarily have to be striking...again, sometimes a form is named for how it 'looks' not what it 'is'. this is why it's so wrong for people to learn forms before applications.

everything wrote:I've heard of all of those except the wrist release.

In the square form we were taught an anti-clockwise circle of the hand from "yin yang fish" (right side) performed after striking with the right hand and during the forming of the crane's beak. If the op grabs your right hand with his left or right, you coil around his wrist while forming the beak. This releases the grip and (because as the relaese takes place, postions you with the "upper Hand"), allows you to strike to the face.

Walk the Torque wrote:

everything wrote:I've heard of all of those except the wrist release.

In the square form we were taught an anti-clockwise circle of the hand from "yin yang fish" (right side) performed after striking with the right hand and during the forming of the crane's beak. If the op grabs your right hand with his left or right, you coil around his wrist while forming the beak. This releases the grip and (because as the relaese takes place, postions you with the "upper Hand"), allows you to strike to the face.

really interesting thanks.

First, Everything: remember that the wu/hao form is a modification of Chen Xiaojia, not the Yang Chengfu form. It is said that Sun Lutang also had the Yang style in mind when modifying the Wu/Hao form. There can be some truth to this. All those "masters" of old, they all knew each other...

everything wrote:I've heard of all of those except the wrist release. What I also wonder about is what happened to this hook shape in single whip in the Wu Hao and Sun styles.

Wu/Hao is exceptionally focused on a very basic idea of structure. Here, you keep the angles of the arms intact as much as you can and It has the hand connected to each other, facing each other, almost all of the time, just like you had a taiji ruler in your hands. My peronal opinion is that the crane's beak was taken away and the posture a bit differently interpreted so you preserve this idea better. This idea of structure followed to Sun Lutang, but today it has become almost lost in Sun style. But of course, "relaxing" seems to be the most important in the taiji world today.

Also why is Sun looking at his right hand in photos of the posture where Yang Cheng Fu looks at his left hand.

You change from to the right to the left just as in yang style. In yang style, when you form the beak and change your weight, you focus on the right side. When you finish the move, you look to the left. The interpretation of the movement is different, and also the focus on directions. But the movements of the different styles are not as different as they seem. Look at the other Wu style ("Leaning" Wu), where you 'sit' down in the single whip posture. This style shows a movement that represents something just in between the Yang and Hao/Sun styles. From one interpretation to another, there are only small adjustments which could look like virtuallly greater differencies then they really are.

There is also other aspects. Some teachers will show and hide different applications. Often, they will not show to much of what they are really good at. They need to hide their strength. On the other hand they might show to much of other aspects, which they did not find important, but others regarded as aspects. Sun Lutang was a qinna expert, so he I think he needed to make sure his qinna adjustments and additions to the form was not virtually to evident. Even if he was inspired by Yang style, I don't think he would add a hook or crane's beak to the single whip. It would be too obvious. But yet, his qinna is quite obvious in the Sun form. Look at the Sun ending, it is the most complex of all of the taiji-ending movements.

very fascinating, thanks, bao.

Father_Jon wrote: to touch the thumb, index and middle fingers in order to make the cranes' beak/buddha's hand/whatever.

Downward hook is a symbolic grabbing on the wrist. Upward hook is a symbolic grabbing on the ankle. LF and Taiji use 5 fingers eagle hook. PM system uses 3 fingers mantis hook. Since in the high level training, all the symbolic moves should be remap back to the reality, it doesn't matter how your hook looks like as long as "you can effectively grab on your opponent's wrist or ankle".

nice post bao

As a sidebar to this discussion, back in the mid-1970's, I saw Master Wm. C.C. Chen effortlessly split the back of a Manhattan Yellow Pages Directory completely in two using a quick 'crack of the whip' flick of the little finger edge of his open left hand with fa-jin application while dropping into a Single Whip/Tan-Pien posture, and then similarly split another one using a quick strike with the wrist of the hooked right hand with fa-jin application while dropping into the Single Whip posture a second time.


Master William C.C. Chen

Very impressive and very cool!

Doc

nice use of the term "high level training," john