Alternatives to BJJ

[bustr]

Let's say that a person has a hard time throwing off an opponent who has him mounted or side controlled and that he can't effectively use the guard position. Does anyone know any specific Qin Na techniques to disable an opponent who has a superior position? Any joint tearing, pressure points, head control etc.?

Thanks

Mike

[ashe]

if they have the superior position you probably couldn't use them.

[bigphatwong]

pull his pants down and take a bite.

[I-mon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kancho

[Areios]

well learn to get out from bad positions. Sometimes finger locks are working with begginers.

[wiesiek]

pull his pants down and take a bite.

I would add famous "waiter technique."_
-how to walk away raw customer:
from his back:
-grab his collar by one hand
and put the pencil into his arse / by 2nd hand, /
lift a little
now
is easy to direct unpleasent guest away

[wiesiek]

ps
i just looked on I-mon post

of course if you dont have pencil
kancho will work equally well

[bailewen]

Let's say that a person has a hard time throwing off an opponent who has him mounted or side controlled and that he can't effectively use the guard position. Does anyone know any specific Qin Na techniques to disable an opponent who has a superior position? Any joint tearing, pressure points, head control etc.?

Thanks

Mike

Really bad question.

[Ian]

pull his pants down and take a bite.

what... the fuck...

great minds think alike

[bustr]

WTF! I thought this was Rumsoakedfist. Did I stumble in sherdog's or mma.tv by mistake?

[Antony Wood]

Hi guys,

I was training with my taiji teacher Shen Tiegen the other week and asked him what he would do if caught in the mount position (I've been training bjj for a few months so I was curious if his response would differ from what I had been taught so far). So, he got on the ground and I got into the mount and started punching and working for a submission. He escaped so fast I couldnt really tell what he did, but he didnt use any chin na. Somehow he managed to do the same thing that he does in push hands, he re-directed my efforts and was able to get good angles on me for pushing and escaping. I wish I had taken a video.

Take care, Antony

[Darth Rock&Roll]

anthony - keep training and try again in 6 months.

as fo the original query:

JJJ, GJJ G&R wrestling all have a lot of useful close quarter grapple and submission techniques.

jjj= japanese jujitsu
gjj=gracie jujitsu (a variant of both jjj, judo and bjj)
G&R = Greco Roman Wrestling

Folk wrestling of any number of variations would be useful as well. But don't bop all over the place getting a tiny bit of novice info here and there. Find something and stick with it.

[Dmitri]

What, nobody mentioned poisoned-spike ring?!

Well, if (and it's a big IF) you can get a hold of their finger and bend it in a way it's not supposed to bend... good luck with that though, 'cause you're gonna need it (unless they got into that position by accident and not because of superior skill, in which case you should be able to just shake them off.)

Learn some basic escapes... It doesn't take long.
If the guy really knows what he's doing he will most likely wait for you to either get tired from all your scrambling to get out, and/or to over-extend while doing some desperate exaggerated thrusts trying to escape, and will use your errors to do something to you.
Basic idea is to conserve your strength and wait for the guy to commit to an attack and look for an opening, but, again, you have to know what you're doing.

One IMA-related approach could be to use your strength/sensitivity to create some space between the two of you and push yourself away/out (or if you're really strong, push him off of you), but, yet again, you need to actually practice that because theory won't help here.

Just my $0.02

[CaliG]

anthony - keep training and try again in 6 months.

as fo the original query:

JJJ, GJJ G&R wrestling all have a lot of useful close quarter grapple and submission techniques.

jjj= japanese jujitsu
gjj=gracie jujitsu (a variant of both jjj, judo and bjj)
G&R = Greco Roman Wrestling

Folk wrestling of any number of variations would be useful as well. But don't bop all over the place getting a tiny bit of novice info here and there. Find something and stick with it.

With 2 years of BJJ experience I too couldn't pin Shen Laoshi. In fact he's the reason I started training again because I could see how the principles of leverage from BJJ and push hands crossed over.

Another alternative is sambo.

[JusticeZero]

Do shuai people ever work grappling?
It seems that if you want to learn to fight in grappling range, you need to train grappling. It's just sensible; I see what sort of helpless mess people make of things when they unexpectedly enter my favorite territory without specifically training there; it's not really a more or less alien place from standing than grappling is.
It need not be BJJ in particular, however; people seem to get by fine by substituting the few equivalents. It seems that CMA is weak in that, I've been waiting to see someone reveal that their art actually trains ON THE GROUND instead of "Do lots of push hands and you'll be able to figure it out when you're not on your feet". I've heard people suggest Dishuquan/Dog, but I know something of that art as it's adjacent to my own field of specialty; it's not a grappling style.

I have a suspicion that if you refreshed your memory on joint manipulations and the like and just started rolling around seeing what of your existing training you could work in, a lot of applications would start to reveal themselves to you. Do it enough with encounters with other ground fighters and you could probably eventually put together a whole CMA curriculum based on it.