power/change

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: power/change

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sat May 30, 2009 4:58 pm

So I had a good think about this last night, and realised that I was oversimplifying/making an artificial binary opposition with the power/change thing, thanks for explaining to me ze errors of that, heh.

johnwang wrote:I was taught:

- Use your solo move to attack 3 times (use your power). If you fail,
- Use your combo to attack 3 times (borrow force - change). If you fail,
- Play defense and counter (borrow force - change). If you still fail,
- Run like hell.


Hi Johnwang,
Sorry for the stupid question, but what do you mean here by a combo to attack? Is it requiring your opponent to 'give' something for you to move into, versus "solo move" being do-able without him giving you anything to borrow?

Chris:
RE: effortless, you're partially right, I should change that to "with little visible effort" instead of "without". In terms of CST vt though, if you 'add' effort to movement then it actually impedes proper power generation, and this will be immediately apparant because you won't be able to move freely. It's good for an arrogant little lazy upstart like me, can't puff out the chest to sort out a hunchback, can't hunch over and think it's relaxed when rather i'm just sloppy.
chimerical tortoise
Huajing
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: power/change

Postby johnwang on Sat May 30, 2009 5:14 pm

chimerical tortoise wrote:what do you mean here by a combo to attack? Is it requiring your opponent to 'give' something for you to move into, versus "solo move" being do-able without him giving you anything to borrow?

Example for the striking art:

- You try to use back fist to hit on your opponent's head (if you can kill him this way, you won't need combo).
- Your opponent is fast enough to block it.
- You borrow his force (his force can help you to reverse the direction of your move) and change your back fist into a hook punch and hit the back of your opponent's head.

Example for the throwing art:

- Your left hand grab on your opponent's leading right leg and your right hand push his right shoulder (knee seize) and try to throw him "backward" (again if you can kill him this way, you won't need combo).
- Your opponent is stronger enough to resist it.
- You borrow his force, move your right hand behind his neck, pull his neck, your left hand lift his right arm, your right leg sweep his leading leg and throw him "forward".
Last edited by johnwang on Sat May 30, 2009 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Crow weep in the dark. Tide bellow in the north wind. How lonesome the world.
User avatar
johnwang
Great Old One
 
Posts: 10346
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: power/change

Postby chimerical tortoise on Sun May 31, 2009 1:42 pm

Thank you, Johnwang.
chimerical tortoise
Huajing
 
Posts: 340
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:31 pm

Re: power/change

Postby Teazer on Sun May 31, 2009 7:17 pm

chimerical tortoise wrote:That's not to say that there isn't angles/fulcrums that everything mentions involved either, there are alot, in general the hand movement etc is more circular than most other VT that I've seen. Similarly my sifu has shown parts of CK/BG that are not straightline but rotational, but without the siu nim tau jibengong, his (and slowly, mine too,) opinion is that the rest is worthless or even illusory.

They can be useful, even more so in some cases. Much of the rotational bits work well when the SNT bits have failed. Since this is more likely to happen for beginners, their chances can be improved by getting better at the basics, or also working starting from less than optimal situations, or some combo of the two.

Changing means you don't have enough power to do things in a more simple way.

For "just the right amount of power" I'd like to disagree. .... From what I've seen, good VT produces through principles an obscene amount of power without effort. ....I fail to see where to be able to generate 'more' power would ever be a hinderence.

The power that you're talking about in VT is done under several constraints though - such as minimizing the chance of over extending, leaning or otherwise giving away your position, as well as minimizing telegraphing of movements. How much those constraints bind is also a function of context. So your original question I suspect was framed with the idea of not enough power while maintaining the constraints, rather than just going harder and forgetting the rest. In which case, if you can attack forcefully enough to go through the opponent without losing your good structure, then everything's fine. If you attack and their counter to your power starts to make you deform from good structure then you could say your structure is not good enough relative to their defense to apply that much power, and change should hopefully occur.

However, even given that reading of it, I see it as more of a continuum than a discrete 'change/no change' kind of thing. If their counter is light and ineffectual, I don't change much. As their response starts putting me in a worse position I would change more - countering some of it structurally, by angling etc. If my attack is totally shut off, then I change a lot (sometimes including getting the hell out of there!). Looking at it that way, if ceterus paribus I could generate more power, in some contexts (where the constraints do not bind) I would need to change less, but where they do, I would be unable to apply the power effectively.
Why does man Kill? He kills for food.
And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.
User avatar
Teazer
Great Old One
 
Posts: 2206
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 am

Re: power/change

Postby Leimeng on Sun May 31, 2009 11:45 pm

Chris McKinley wrote:RE: "Training on 'change' acknowledges that you haven't trained enough power.". Gotta call bullshit on this one. Power alone is never sufficient for real combat.


~ Hmm, well, if you have enough power you can fly anything. Just look at the F-4 Phantom. Flying brick... A bit of fire power, not a lot else except a ballsy fighter jock in the cockpit...
~ Of course, they have some dedicated flight chiefs back a base keeping everything running for them...
~ Continue to discuss amongst yourselves...

Peace,

Leimeng

Flatulo Ergo Sum ~~~

Locomotive: A crazy reason for doing something.

(***Insert Personal One Liner Here***)
Leimeng
Huajing
 
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:39 pm

Re: power/change

Postby wiesiek on Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:43 am

Leimeng wrote:
Chris McKinley wrote:RE: "Training on 'change' acknowledges that you haven't trained enough power.". Gotta call bullshit on this one. Power alone is never sufficient for real combat.


~ Hmm, well, if you have enough power you can fly anything. Just look at the F-4 Phantom. Flying brick...

::)
you are in mist,
strupid comparision Leimeng
without electronic, flying brick wil fly everywere not nessesery were you aim for...



not so staight into the ground in most cases...
Joyful Fruits of the Live
wiesiek
Wuji
 
Posts: 4480
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:38 am
Location: krakow

Previous

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 117 guests