Are MA ineffective means of Self-Defense?

[Waterway]

Hello All

I raised this issue on another forum, and got some very good responses out of it.

Most people who study martial arts and are interested in Self-Defence say fighting is the least preferred option during a confrontation. Yet and withal, it seems to be the very thing that people who study martial arts train to do: fight. I find this an interesting paradox i.e. fighting is to be avoided, yet most of my training time is dedicated towards learning how to fight.

For example, flight is an excellent means of self preservation. If you watch a lot of wildlife documentaries, you will see that in nature, prey often tries to flee the predator.

So if a person is genuinely interested in Self Defence, why not do some interval training, endurance running and or Parkour? Surely as physical training goes that will be as much, if not more, benefit than learning how to fight?

Here are some other ideas I came up with as alternative ways to spend time rather than learning MA (with a few other suggestions from other people):

Endurance/Sprint Training
Parkour
Strength Conditioning/Bodybuilding (strength is a great assist IMO, and sometimes if some looks bigger that can act as a deterrent to no good hoodlums lol!)
Studying Criminal Psychology (e.g. why do people commit violent crime?)
First Aid (you might not get attacked, but you might be able to save someone who was)
Dog Education (mans best friend, and learning more about how to care for and train a dog can have many benefits for owner and dog, and dogs can help spot danger that you might miss)
Weapons Training (depends where you live and what the law allows, but it may be worth looking into).

All of the above can be beneficial for SD, as much so, if not more so that MA. They also all have additional benefits beyond training for SD.

Another thing that was pointed out on the other thread was the hypocrisy of some martial artists who train for "self defence". One example I know of was when I use to train at a University Gym.

There was a Karate group who would train in the University Gym. They said the taught real SD, they taught "what works" in their class. After every class, they would go out to the pub and some of them would get hammered. Great, you just spent 90 minutes learning to kick ass, and now you are doing more harm to yourself than any bada$$ out on da street.

What is the point of thinking you are learning SD if you aren't taking care of yourself? If you do more harm to yourself with your own behaviours, then why even worry about the remote chance that someone else might hurt you?

I could talk about this at length, but this is enough to start the thread. What do you think?

[Chris McKinley]

Waterway,

Great thread topic. RE: "I find this an interesting paradox i.e. fighting is to be avoided, yet most of my training time is dedicated towards learning how to fight.". There's nothing at all paradoxical about it. Most people who train how to do a proper fire drill would prefer their house not catch fire in the first place. Still, because it's possible that it might, they train to deal with it as safely as possible. Most people who drive would rather not get in an accident, yet they still spend ridiculous amounts of money on car insurance. Same goes for health insurance, first-aid, CPR, etc., etc.

RE: "So if a person is genuinely interested in Self Defence, why not do some interval training, endurance running and or Parkour? Surely as physical training goes that will be as much, if not more, benefit than learning how to fight?". Exactly, why not? No one's saying their mutually exclusive. Be able to run, be able to fight, be able to talk your way out of it, etc.

RE: "Here are some other ideas I came up with as alternative ways to spend time rather than learning MA...". WRONG. You don't do these things instead of learning to defend yourself, you do them in addition to being able to defend yourself. Again, they aren't mutually exclusive, and there's no guarantee that being able to do all the things you listed will prevent you from ever having to still defend yourself anyway. With the exception of Parkour (not familiar with that term), I've done all of the things you have listed, and other things as well. That is in no way any kind of guarantee that I won't still find myself in a position where I must defend myself anyway.

RE: "What is the point of thinking you are learning SD if you aren't taking care of yourself?". Not much, but then again, your thread sets up a false choice between taking care of yourself and learning viable self-defense. One could, by the very same logic and just as legitimately, ask what is the point of doing all these other things you mention to take care of yourself if you still lack the ability to defend yourself should you ever find yourself unavoidably attacked?

The bottom line is that it's not an either/or choice. You do it all.

[Andy_S]

Good points on the whole.

I would differentiate between MA and combat sports. IMHO and IME, those who practice combat sports (eg boxing, wrestling, and I would extend that to judo, BJJ, MMA) are much better at SD than those who practice "traditional MA." Why? Because their training is predicated on the notion that you are learning to FIGHT, rather than learning SD.

If you can fight, you can defend yourself.

If you learn MA for self-defense, there is no guarantee you can fight, ergo no guarantee that you have the necessary attributes - courage, timing, fortitude, durability, fitness, etc, - that may be required in a serious SD situation.

(I am not talking about techniques, here - deadly or otherwise)

[Chris McKinley]

Andy,

RE: "ecause their training is predicated on the notion that you are learning to FIGHT, rather than learning SD.". We may be getting into a bit of semantics on this one, but what you just stated is exactly what I would consider the main weakness of combat sports for use as self-defense. Namely, that they train to fight (not de-escalate, not seek discreet egress, not maneuver so as to avoid a potentially hostile person in the first place) and only fight (not eliminate with weapons, not cheat, not use environmental obstacles/weapons, not be aware of protective charges, etc.). Those things are what real self-defense is about.

Therefore, it's not that traditional martial arts represent "self-defense" and combat sports represent fighting. The latter is true, the former, frankly, isn't. I would put real self-defense and combat sports as closer to each other on the spectrum of reality than either is to traditional martial arts as they are typically taught.

[Teazer]

With the exception of Parkour (not familiar with that term), I've done all of the things you have listed,

Good post, Chris. Here's one of the parkour big names doing his thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x98jCBnWO8w

[Bao]

Sorry to say this, but the thread title is as much btdt it can get.

If you can fight, you can defend yourself.

No - if you mean fighting as learned from MA. Most competitions and ways to practice fighting are to limited. The only way to learn how to fight for real is to fight for real. Ma can help you if you alllready caan fight. If you don't know how to fight, it is much more about mind set than a set of skills. If you don't have the right attitude, no teaching method in the world can help you to defend yourself

What is the point of thinking you are learning SD if you aren't taking care of yourself? If you do more harm to yourself with your own behaviours, then why even worry about the remote chance that someone else might hurt you?

You do have an idealistic view, which is actually very far from the truth. Most good fighters have no respect, neither for themselves nor others. They don't care about what happen to themselves. From childhood they have recieved a lot of beating and from getting beaten they have learned how to beat up others. You can see a lot of examples from fights and matches, how the winners does not care what happen with them as long as they can punch their opponent more and harder. Most of these fighters does not practice hard becasue they take care about themselves. They also drink, take drugs and beat up their wives and kids.

Meeting a regular MA-ist will have no special psychological impact, even if he have all the technical knowledge in the world. But looking into the eyes of someone who has absolute no respect for anything, incuding himself, is a scary thing.

If you start practicing MA with the mind-set of "taking care of yourself", it will be very hard to become a good fighter and it will be very hard to become good at defending yourself. This is the sad truth.

[zenshiite]

The whole train to fight so that you won't have to fight maxim is basically Murphy's Law. You're preparing for anything that could go wrong, because it usually will go wrong.

[Strange]

Endurance/Sprint Training
Parkour
Strength Conditioning/Bodybuilding (strength is a great assist IMO, and sometimes if some looks bigger that can act as a deterrent to no good hoodlums lol!)
Studying Criminal Psychology (e.g. why do people commit violent crime?)
First Aid (you might not get attacked, but you might be able to save someone who was)
Dog Education (mans best friend, and learning more about how to care for and train a dog can have many benefits for owner and dog, and dogs can help spot danger that you might miss)
Weapons Training (depends where you live and what the law allows, but it may be worth looking into).

ho excellent, worthy study subjects and i'm sure there are informative forums out there dedicated to their discussion.
fer most us here, we like to hurt ppl who dun look right or who think we do not look right in strange and very interesting ways.
i fer one think that who can learn their art have their names written in a book held by past lineage holders in the nether world; if you do other stuff things get screwed up pretty fast. heh heh heh. and its no use even if you train hard... if your names not there, mang, it not there... arh well dun mind me, i'm a guy who thinks one can breathe thru their legs and commune with the great qi energy of the earth.
first aid? oh yeah i'm a medic. so how do i reconcile the fact that i'm a fighter but i should really give medical attention to ppl who need it? heh simple i just lay them on the ground, THEN i give them first aid. see it all works out.

ma? sd? heh heh heh its funny, all them gis, strokes, kicks, smart theories, clever semantics, cunning word slicing is not martial arts! its just stupid really, it just roughly points to martial arts. not even worth the fart comming outta my arse right now hee hee stupid!!

[Andy_S]

Chris:

Very good point re walking and talking....I was talking about once things get physical. And I fully concur with your final statement.

Bao:

Right, if you don't have the mindset, you can't fight. But combat sports - even contact sports like rugby - will give you this mindset (actually, I'd say a set of both mental and physical attributes) if you don't have. Much TMA training is too lacking in contact ever to produce realistic skills. I agree that boxing, say, teaches a very limited skillset, but the way they train makes it very effective - even for 'real' combat. Many TMA that teach a full spectrum of technique are unable to teach the effective use thereof.

[RobP2]

Endurance/Sprint Training
Parkour
Strength Conditioning/Bodybuilding (strength is a great assist IMO, and sometimes if some looks bigger that can act as a deterrent to no good hoodlums lol!)
Studying Criminal Psychology (e.g. why do people commit violent crime?)
First Aid (you might not get attacked, but you might be able to save someone who was)
Dog Education (mans best friend, and learning more about how to care for and train a dog can have many benefits for owner and dog, and dogs can help spot danger that you might miss)
Weapons Training (depends where you live and what the law allows, but it may be worth looking into).

There are aspects of these elements and others we try and incorporate into what we do, though for some time now I've shied away from describing it as "martial arts". It's a convenient label but not one I feel much affinity to. I've often thought it odd in a way that people can devote so much time to "self defence" yet not know how to fall safely or react in a crowd, for example, both in many cases more likely situations than being in some duel.

I fully understand peoples' interest in studying an art form, or of keeping certain types of practice alive, be it rapier fencing or monkey boxing and I also understand there can be cross-over benefits from that in self defence (perhaps self protection is a better term?). Or of using their practice as a path to spiritual or health study.

"If you can fight, you can defend yourself."
Against what? And in what circumstances? So many MAs seem geared only to a certain set of conditions

Another question is - what self are we defending when we learn this stuff? And I was as green and naive as anyone when I first started. There's an attractiveness to being the lone hero, the quiet good guy who eventually kicks bad guy ass, the righteous warrior. However that's all part of the heady fantasy of martial arts. There's also a darker side of bolstered egos, unhealthy practices, exploitation and plain old dishonesty.

So how much appeals to the ego and encourages the fantasy, or builds a big shield to hide behind? A lot of RBSD training in particular seems built around building fears. How much training does something to dispel fear rather than propagate it?

Learning to fight shouldn't take long. Unless you are a professional it's not likely to be a skill you call on so much. It's just the start of something interesting.

cheers
Rob

[Waterway]

Good points guys.

Chris, regarding studying them in tandum with MA training, that is a fair point. In reality we all have a certain amount of time (and money!) for training. I think it is important to decide what is going to benefit you most, and where you should concentrate your energies. Additionally, it is unlikely anyone training in all of the aforementioned areas is going to be great at any of them, and indeed performance in some areas may be less due to overwhelming the body/mind. Its an individual thing I suppose, but you are right in the sense that exploring various (complementary) studies can produce better results.

Regarding the BTDT... Is it just the title? I didn't see anything on the forums that asks the questions in the original thread. I believe that most martial arts try to teach people how to fight. Some may do this more effectively than others. That isn't the question though. The question, I suppose, is how effective is fighting as a SD strategy? Are there other, more effective, strategies that people could learn?

I think it is important to challenge the notion held by some people that Fighting = Self Defense. There is a lot more to it than that. This might sound like an obvious thing to say, but a lot of classes I have been to seem to pay lip service to it. Martial Arts teachers who say "Just walk away/Try to Escape" then show you the best way they believe to try and hurt someone. Again, this is why I think of it as a paradox i.e. spending most of your free time training to do something that is not avoidable. Or, seeking out places and people to fight because you don't want to fight lol!

Seriously though, if a person spends most of their time learning how to fight, then what options are they leaving themselves in a confrontation? Is it a case of training for the worst case scenario, or ending up in the worst case scenario because by simply training how to fight, you have left yourself with little to no option?

Another point: Martial Arts, particularly full contact martial arts, run the risk of participants getting injured. Most people are aware of this. If injured by doing these arts, you are going to be a lot less able to flee/fight, depending on the injury. There is also the point that by doing certain arts over a long period of time, you may, ironcially enough, do more harm to yourself than some "bada$$ on da street".

Thanks for input everyone. I think this is a good topic that isn't talked about enough between people who study/are interested in Martial Arts.

[JusticeZero]

*shrugs* Most of my SD curriculum is based on creating space and getting an attacker off of their feet so that one can then flee, and on mobility when footwork goes north. All of the scenarios, once the attacker's mobility has been made significantly worse than the defender, "This is the part where you run away." Other (grappling) arts focus on what is effectively an arrest. Some arts stick around and play pattycake; I think that's a failure of imagination or tactics on the teachers' part somewhere along the line.

[everything]

did you see the story about the pizza delivery man who led the cops to a rape victim that was allegedly going to be murdered: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090530/ap_ ... ape_rescue

should this pizza man have resorted to fighting? probably not. what about the victim? notice the pizza man had no cell phone reception at this location.

[Chris McKinley]

Waterway,

I don't think this thread is BTDT in and of itself. What might be BTDT would be if people just blindly defended the status quo or if they dismissed anything that's not MMA as worthless. The question itself is fine, if a bit naive.

RE: "The question, I suppose, is how effective is fighting as a SD strategy?". It jolly well depends on the circumstances, now doesn't it? You're implying that fighting is but one of several "strategies" one could choose from in a given circumstance, as if one were equally capable of walking away, talking your way out of it, or merely getting in physical shape as they are choosing to fight. That view has absolutely no basis in reality. Most fights are completely avoidable, and.....no surprise....should therefore be avoided. However, some are not, and in those circumstances, all the running, bodybuilding, first aid, criminal psychology, and doggie studying in the world won't do you a damn bit of good collectively. For those situations, you have to know how to defend yourself. There is no functional substitute.

[chimerical tortoise]

RE: MA vs. SD

Two things: first, my sifu has always told me that there's no such thing as 'self-defense' inherent to MA. Part of his argument (and one I'm not 100% understanding of yet) is that the idea of 'defense' creates a restriction on your imagination of what is possible, and if you can't run, then (assuming you're alive and aware) you should self-attack the threat. He also explicitly tells us that what he teaches will only have a reasonable chance to work if the opponent isn't sneaking up behind you or something "immoral". In SD terms this is arguably very incomplete, but he is very honest in what he teaches.

Second, There's the Cantonese saying that people train in MA for three reasons: (1) to dance, (2) to spar/compete, and (3) to get into rotten-guy fights. I'm not sure what all the connotations of 'rotten-guy fights' are, it was explained as a 'catch-all' term for all the altercations and crap that rotten guys run into (because self respecting citizens will never, never find themselves in trouble...). I don't think that there's any sort of defensive or harmonious/peaceful/calm inner warrior stuff in (3), if anything it's implied to be completely opposite.


Waterway,
I found that Rory Miller's "Meditations on Violence" was very useful for me, maybe you might want to check what he has to say out. I think that it addresses some of your concerns in a way.