Ti Guan

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Ti Guan

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:26 am

Chris McKinley wrote:I don't go looking for that kind of trouble, so there's no reason for it to come looking for me. If it happens to show up, my policy is that the person will be told that I do not accept challenges and will be asked to leave. If they do not, they will be given a single warning that they are trespassing and that if they do not leave, the police will be called. If they still insist on assaulting either myself or any of my students, they will then be held at gunpoint until the police arrive. There's not really a lot of gray area for me on that particular matter.

OK, fair enough, but most people who are unexpectedly assaulted didn't "go looking for that kind of trouble" either. We can neither predict nor control an aggressor's decisions or actions in most instances, can we?

So, Chris, what's the point of repeatedly insisting on keeping it real by training to develop practical, effective fighting skills rather than form set performance skills alone, but then address the unsolicited aggression of an unexpected challenger with a firearm in hand until the police arrive? Do you carry the firearm 24/7 to insure that it is always readily at hand? If not, then what?

Doesn't your dependence on a firearm in such situations send a clear message to your students that they should just forget about learning martial arts from you, and also simply carry a firearm themselves instead?

Doc ???
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Re: Ti Guan

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:43 am

FWIW, I don't have any issues with being approached and challenged.

It's preferable to being sucker punched while out with friends. :)

If you have a public school, then it probably behooves you to at least be somewhat prepared for any event like this.

In my old teachers school, we had a couple of occasions where idiots would show up. My teacher would send on of us to deal with it.

In every case, when the challenge was met readily by a willing student, the challenger would back away! Most challenges in context to MA schools are shit anyway. I myself had a laughable experience where I was challenged, then the guy who challenged me sent someone in his place and that person couldn't cross the border and so they wanted me to travel to them! Outrageously goofy!

Anyway, my door is open for sharing, but I take care of the challenges at the gate, if they show up. As an aside, I don't issue challenges myself as I see them as wholly unnecessary in this day and age. intellectual is one thing, physical is another. There's venues for that where all parties concerned can walk away with a couple of bucks!
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Re: Ti Guan

Postby SPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:50 am

challenge match usually starts with a formal letter or invitation.

witness is invited and agreed upon by both.

some are private, some are open to public such as in a public place or lei tai.

--

ti guan may come unannouced and with intent to destroy the school.

then calling public security or self defence with firearm may be justified.

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Re: Ti Guan

Postby cerebus on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:01 am

Just keep a stack of injury waivers and a pen next to the MMA gloves and be sure to ask whether your challenger wishes to be seated in the "biting and gouging or non-biting and gouging" section...
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Re: Ti Guan

Postby somatai on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:39 am

Doc Stier wrote:
Chris McKinley wrote:I don't go looking for that kind of trouble, so there's no reason for it to come looking for me. If it happens to show up, my policy is that the person will be told that I do not accept challenges and will be asked to leave. If they do not, they will be given a single warning that they are trespassing and that if they do not leave, the police will be called. If they still insist on assaulting either myself or any of my students, they will then be held at gunpoint until the police arrive. There's not really a lot of gray area for me on that particular matter.

OK, fair enough, but most people who are unexpectedly assaulted didn't "go looking for that kind of trouble", either. We can neither predict nor control an aggressors decisions or actions in most instances, can we?

So, Chris, what's the point of repeatedly insisting on keeping it real by training to develop practical, effective fighting skills rather than form set performance skills alone, but then address the unsolicited aggression of an unexpected challenger with a firearm in hand until the police arrive? Do you carry the firearm 24/7 to insure that it is always readily at hand? If not, then what?

Doesn't your dependence on a firearm in such situations send a clear message to your students that they should just forget about learning martial arts from you, and also simply carry a firearm themselves instead?

Doc ???


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Re: Ti Guan

Postby SPJ on Fri Jun 05, 2009 8:56 am

in the old time, chanllenge matches did not occur frequently,

why

1. if the teacher or the best student is injured, the school will be closed for a long time or for good.

b/c it takes a long time to recover from injuries, no teaching for a while, sometimes the injury is permanent, the medicine was not as good as nowadays.

2. no matter how careful you are, fist and leg have no eyes. quan jiao wu yan. injury will occur.

sometimes, challenge is banned or happen only every 10 years etc in a village. in the city, the chanllenge matches may be more frequent.

why village banned challenge among different schools

b/c you need civil defense against bandits and invaders.

no school, no training, no defense, the village is defenseless, it is an open target especially around harvesting times with foods/crops, and wine.


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Re: Ti Guan

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:52 am

Doc Stier,

RE: "OK, fair enough, but most people who are unexpectedly assaulted didn't "go looking for that kind of trouble", either. We can neither predict nor control an aggressors decisions or actions in most instances, can we?". No. Yet I'm curious, how is that in any way a justification for acceptance of that kind of behavior rather than my very clear unacceptance of it and willingness to protect both myself and my students? What exactly is the logical flaw with leaving other people alone and wanting to be left alone in return? IOW, what exactly is your point with that statement?

RE: "So, Chris, what's the point of repeatedly insisting on keeping it real by training to develop practical, effective fighting skills rather than form set performance skills alone, but then address the unsolicited aggression of an unexpected challenger with a firearm in hand until the police arrive?". The point is that the training is for real and unavoidable circumstances where you may be caught without a weapon handy or presentable, not for the bullshit power jockeying of a bunch of guys who are still playing Kung Fu Theater in their minds.

Challenge matches fall into the same category as most bar fights. They are about ego and they are entirely avoidable. I advocate to my students that they stay out of avoidable violence, whatever the sort. I'm a little old-fashioned that way. However, since some kinds of violence are not avoidable sometimes, I provide skills for handling it, and those are not the skills where everybody goes home friends or goes out for a beer together afterward.

As I've already mentioned, if someone simply wants to test their skills to see if they match up to their expectations, there are plenty of safe, controlled, sportsmanlike tournament venues where they can test themselves silly to whatever degree of contact they desire. There's just no excuse anymore. Just about anybody who wants to fight, can, at whatever level of ability, and can do so in a safe environment as often as they choose.

RE: "Doesn't your dependence on a firearm in such situations send a clear message to your students that they should just forget about learning martial arts from you, and also simply carry a firearm themselves instead?". No, and I don't leave such messages to implication, I address them directly with my students. Empty hand combat skills, for real protection of life and limb as the primary training objective, serve two purposes and two purposes only:

1) They provide a level of action that one can take to quell or contain a potentially violent situation from becoming more dangerous.

2) In the case of a real assault, they serve as immediate action taken in order to either achieve safe egress of yourself and all of your charges or to buy time in order to present a weapon. Secondarily to this function, they serve as one's only means of response in a real violent assault if and only if one does not have a weapon nor is able to procure one from the immediate environment.

Notice I did not say that they are specifically intended to be the preferred response instead of a weapon in a real unavoidable violent assault, since that is not their purpose. Your question here seems to be, but of course might not be, implying two inaccurate ideas:

A) That the training of empty hand martial arts skills are at odds with weapons training and usage in a false "either/or" choice. In the entirety of human history, both skill sets have been trained concurrently, complementarily, and congruently. Fighting skills specifically intended for and even limited to sport purposes that do not inlcude lethal combat are a somewhat different animal. They may or may not contain material viable for the context of real combat depending upon the individual quality of the system trained, but unlike skills for real combat, they may remain exclusively focused on empty hands practice.

B) That simply carrying a firearm, or any other weapon for that matter, precludes the need for viable empty hand combat skills. This is a fallacy created by both a legitimate realization and acknowledgment of the extreme advantage having a firearm imparts and on lots of Hollywood movies. Having a firearm in one's possession is indeed an exponentially large advantage over being unarmed in a real violent encounter. However, that firearm does not provide that advantage if you aren't already walking around everywhere you go with the weapon presented and your eyes on the sights, as any veteran cop will be eager to explain.

If an assault begins with a surprise attack, as I have mentioned many times that they often do, then one is forced to deal with the immediate situation before there is opportunity to present the weapon. There is also the possibility that the situation does not call for lethal force. If the person has a firearm but is without the skill to handle a lesser situation, neither of his two choices are appealing. Either he uses the weapon in a case of unjustified lethal force or he does nothing to prevent the situation from escalating and probably takes a beating or allows someone else to.

As a summation, it should be noted that unlike many instructors, I train people whose primary purpose for training is to be able to get themselves and their loved ones home safely. In the pursuit of that objective, traditional martial arts with all their traditions, customs, cultural practices, etc., are but a tool for achieving the objective, nothing more. They neither take precedence over the primary objective nor do they alter it in any way. Put another way, I'm training people who want nothing more than to mind their own business, obey the law, and live their lives in peace, and want to be left alone to do so. However, since predators still exist out there, they want the skills to be able to survive and thrive if someone should decide to deprive them of their right to be left alone in peace. That is also exactly mirrored in my policy toward the predatory violence of so-called "challengers".
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Re: Ti Guan

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:44 pm

This thread leaves me thinking about another point that either hasn't been addressed or hasn't been fully considered. The practice of ti guan, as someone previously defined it, has generally (and appropriately) been decried as an act of pure malice. This thread has also evolved (devolved?) into a discussion of the larger topic of challenge matches as a whole, including those that don't really fall into the ti guan category precisely.

Challenge matches of the sort where the person being challenged can decline can still be more dangerous than was expected, especially if the 'challengee' does not know and/or trust the challenger to fight fairly and to stop before causing injury or death. However, at least the person being challenged has the option of declining and if he goes into it anyway, he does so making an informed choice. That's a crucial difference compared to the circumstance where the challenger refuses to allow the challengee to decline, and instead presses the physical assault regardless.

In the latter case, the challenger is a predator....no different than someone who assaults you on the street unavoidably, and he deserves the identical treatment you would show such an attacker, whatever that happens to be for you personally. In the case where the challenge can be declined without further assault, then each person must decide for him/herself whether or not to engage in the practice, but there is less sympathy for those that do, since they do so knowing the potential dangers and yet still make a free choice to participate.

Since challenge matches serve no functional purpose in the modern age for which tournament fighting cannot provide an equal or superior format, let's look at the cultural origins of the practice of challenge matches to see why some people still perpetuate it. As has been mentioned, the practice began in a context where small villages and towns not only did not have the population to support multiple instructors, but were likely populated by people who were related to each other by various degrees. Clan enclaves rather than towns as we in the modern West know them. Therefore, the people of that village had a vested interest in not only preserving their combat methods, but in supporting their local instructor, since he was likely a relative.

As a result, a challenge to that instructor from someone foreign to the village also had a dimension of a challenge for rule of that local area by that particular clan of people as well. IOW, it was a political affair as well as an individual ego concern. It also cannot go unmentioned that the practice arose in a predominantly collectivist culture, with focus on the group (whether clan, village, school, province, state, etc.) taking precedent over the rights, needs and concerns of the individual. As a result, the "honor of the school" and other similar sentiments were given priority over what might or might not be in the best interest of any of the individuals involved.

Particularly in the modern West, society has evolved into one which recognizes and, to varying degrees, celebrates the rights, needs and freedoms of the individual over the collective. Not necessarily to exclusion, but in terms of priority. However, practice of martial arts in the modern West is still largely reflective of the earlier, more primitive view of the individual's role in society from which those arts came. Long before those arts reached the shores of the modern West, they were deeply infused with the cultural trappings, beliefs and customs of their native lands. Specifically with regard to Chinese arts, an overwhelmingly powerful element of Confucian philosophy pervades every aspect of those arts and their practice, even into the modern age.

This is fine, as long as the student is aware of the situation and makes a choice to embrace not only the martial art to which he is attracted, but also all of the social and cultural customs, beliefs and mindset that accompany it as a default package deal. One of the most important societal evolutions in Western culture has been the ascent and development of the trait of critical thinking. The modern Western critical thinker will easily realize that the baby and the bathwater are not the same, i.e., that the martial art and the entirety of the package of cultural, ethical and philosophical beliefs and practices in which it comes wrapped are neither one in the same nor are they joined at the hip. For example, it is well within the realm of possibility for someone to become quite skilled at the art of Taijiquan, Baguazhang or Xingyiquan without recognizing even the existence of the concept of qi.

What the critical thinker will also recognize is that, as society has evolved or at least changed in the modern West from the original context of parochial village/clan defense, some of the practices that are associated with an art that arose in that more primitive context are no longer as well-adapted to the modern context in which he now lives. As an example, the need to test oneself and one's martial abilities in order to determine whether one is capable of real defense no longer requires engaging in life-threatening combat with hostile combatants. Much safer venues exist now which allow one's skills to be not only tested while retaining personal safety, they even allow a further development of those skills than would otherwise be possible in many instances.

Such venues are so commonplace in modern Western society that the need for uncontrolled testing of combat skills against unknown hostile combatants is no longer necessary, nor perhaps even justified. Sport combat venues exist for nearly every level of combat intensity short of that which unavoidably causes serious injury or death. Since engaging in a practice which does unavoidably cause serious injury or death is self-defeating in all but the most unavoidable circumstances, there is then no reason to choose such a practice over the many incomparably safer sport combat venues which are available to anyone. Other than pure ego, of course. ;)

If someone is still not satisfied with the available options and simply must determine whether their skills are sufficient for real life-or-death combat, there are still other more productive options. To someone who claims that sport venues are insufficient for their purposes, I would then challenge them to pony up and go sign up for Special Forces, special teams law enforcement, DEA, or high-risk personal protection duty. You'll get plenty of opportunity to prove what a hardass you are, and at least we'll get some good out of you.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Ti Guan

Postby Doc Stier on Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:05 pm

As a professional martial arts teacher during the past 35 years, I have dealt with aggressive antagonists either 5 or 6 times per year on average, sometimes to eliminate my competition to their school or teacher and sometimes simply to test my skills. It has been my observation in doing so throughout this period of time, that very few guys have the courage to actually challenge a reputable martial artist face to face. It is much more probable that an ambush will be attempted outside the school somewhere instead, thus employing an element of surprise, generally from a concealed position and usually at night in order to use the cover of darkness as well. :o

Nowadays, it is more typical that a bogus challenge is issued online via forum PM's or emails sent from the safety and security of an anonymous physical location by a coward using a fake avatar name. These generally never materialize for obvious reasons. ::)

There was a tendency in the old days, however, for legitimate teachers of authentic traditional styles to visit the schools of phony teachers in order to "encourage" them to cease and desist from offering bogus courses of instruction to naive students. This was done with the idea of protecting unsuspecting potential students from commercial fraud, and with a view towards protecting the reputation of authentic martial arts, simply because people who have been taken advantage of by unscrupulous operators are hesitant to embark on another course of instruction anywhere. They realize from their bad experience that they can't adequately determine who is a bona fide instructor and who is not, which ultimately harms the legitimate schools as well.

Current access to a plethora of public information regarding the martial arts online today has done much to eliminate many of the scams that were more commonly encountered prior to the easy availability of internet research on the subject. This is a good thing, IMO.

Doc
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Re: Ti Guan

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:07 pm

Doc,

RE: "It has been my observation in doing so throughout this period of time, that very few guys have the courage to actually challenge a reputable martial artist face to face. It is much more probable that an ambush will be attempted outside the school somewhere instead, thus employing an element of surprise, generally from a concealed position and usually at night in order to use the cover of darkness as well.". That is very unfortunate. I hope that you or yours have not been harmed in such an assault. For me, an assault of the nature you describe will not result in the "challenger" getting the challenge he seeks, it will simply get him very dead. I cannot and will not take chances with that type of assault that it might be just a 20-something hopped up on testosterone wanting to compare dicks.

RE: "Nowadays, it is more typical that a bogus challenge is issued online via forum PM's or emails sent from the safety and security of an anonymous physical location by a coward using a fake avatar name. These generally never materialize for obvious reasons.". Uh huh. Out of all the toes I've stepped on and all the "challenges" I've been given on the internet over the years, only one ever showed up, and that was at my home. He was very well-behaved while he waited at gunpoint for the gendarmes to arrive and listen to his problems. No harm, no foul.

RE: "Current access to a plethora of public information regarding the martial arts online today has done much to eliminate many of the scams that were more commonly encountered prior to the easy availability of internet research on the subject. This is a good thing, IMO.". In mine as well. I think part of taking ownership of your own training includes getting yourself up to the speed where you do have the ability to distinguish viable material from that which is not. If you're not at that point yet, you likely can't fight for squat anyway, so you already have a lot of work on your hands. The nice thing is, getting yourself to a point where you really can fight for real tends to provide dividends and fringe benefits, including sharpening your ability to spot the nonsense.
Chris McKinley

 

Re: Ti Guan

Postby D_Glenn on Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:30 pm

chimerical tortoise wrote:So I heard a story recently where one sifu kicked a few students out for going to a wushu school to ti guan/tek gwoon. This makes me wonder about something:

What defines ti guan/tek gwoon?
and assorted questions... when is it appropriate? has this happened to your knowledge? is Bullshido's initial aim a continuation of this tradition?

I've never really gotten that clear of an answer from my sifu, it seems that anybody with strange intent (or one of proving) that isn't open to learning qualifies as ti guan. From what I understand it seems to have been a fairly accepted practice "back-in-the-day" both for establishing schools/reputations and taking out schools/shoddy quality. I was wondering if anybody could elucidate on this?

FWIW, this came to mind when Chris McKinley was talking about quality of MA. Alot of the time my sifu is worried about legal action/insurance, which seems to be a pretty big deal to people teaching (and less so to a youngling). I'm mainly curious about how MA is officially validated (in the past and now), and why people would think that there's a problem with quality of MA.




I think you bring up one of the major points of it, not really to steal students but to ensure that if someone was teaching martial arts they'd better be able to fight or they would have no school.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the origin of the term also comes from after you beat the teacher, you don't destroy the school, only the wooden sign with the name of the school that's above the front door- break/kick it in half.

-------------

Colorado use to have a big problem with it, especially around the time when BK was here but it wasn't just limited to CMA's, the korean schools here were some of the worst, and the Japanese schools as well, the guy who started Sabaki and Enshin karate: Joko Ninomiya wrote about some of his challenges in his book. There are almost no public schools here now but probably the largest number of high level IMA/CMA teachers in the U.S., all teaching in parks and hidden schools.


.
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