Ti Guan

[chimerical tortoise]

So I heard a story recently where one sifu kicked a few students out for going to a wushu school to ti guan/tek gwoon. This makes me wonder about something:

What defines ti guan/tek gwoon?
and assorted questions... when is it appropriate? has this happened to your knowledge? is Bullshido's initial aim a continuation of this tradition?

I've never really gotten that clear of an answer from my sifu, it seems that anybody with strange intent (or one of proving) that isn't open to learning qualifies as ti guan. From what I understand it seems to have been a fairly accepted practice "back-in-the-day" both for establishing schools/reputations and taking out schools/shoddy quality. I was wondering if anybody could elucidate on this?

FWIW, this came to mind when Chris McKinley was talking about quality of MA. Alot of the time my sifu is worried about legal action/insurance, which seems to be a pretty big deal to people teaching (and less so to a youngling). I'm mainly curious about how MA is officially validated (in the past and now), and why people would think that there's a problem with quality of MA.

[Fubo]

"Ti guan/Tek Goon" direct translation means to "kick school"... it basically means to go to another martial arts school and kick everyone's ass. Whether it is appropriate or not is up to the individual to decide. People would do it "back in the day" to make a name for them selves, and or to steal students from the school. It doesn't happen that much now a days (relative to the past in CMA schools) as the majority of CMA schools don't actually practice fighting.

[gosao]

Bald guy goes into town to tek kwoon.

[gryphonz]

I might not be a nice thing, but the system leads to a very good thing. Fake teachers get their asses whooped, students learn who really has the goods. The downside is beef between schools. In all, the quality of traditional martial artists is improved.

[johnwang]

This was exactly how I came to this forum in the 1st place. When my teacher sent David C. K. Lin and Shun-Er Lin to Ti Wang Yen-Nien's Guan. Wang made bad comment about my teacher after that. One of the EF members repeated that comment on this forum and someone told me about it. I then came to this forum to defend my teacher's unfair comment.

In my knowledge, Ti Guan usually was a teacher sent his students to close down other teacher's school for some personal reason. In the old time, a student was no more than his teacher's biting dog and bited whomever his teacher wanted him to bite.

[cerebus]

These days it just leads to all kindsa legal troubles. Any teacher with an interest in avoiding legal prosecution would stay away from that sort of practice these days. Though I certainly can understand the usefulness for quality control of schools.

[nianfong]

the reason why the schools are still good in asia is that this type of thing happens all the time there still. though perhaps in a more civilized manner usually. Sometimes it's a formal challenge between schools. sometimes it's just an informal unfriendly sparring visit without as much breaking of furniture or bones.

if you do it in the US, you will be sued or put in jail, which is why shitty schools exist in the US. seriously.

-Fong

[chimerical tortoise]

I don't think ti guan is any sort of way to go, but was looking at it in the context of modernisation/economic focus and how that might have changed the way arts are viewed and practiced.

When I asked my sifu about QC he said that everybody has to eat, there's no point in ruining others' efforts. I've heard of ti guan happening still in China, but often wonder why not in North America.

In regards to 'live'-ness of the martial arts, do you think that without the threat of "ti guan", CMA as a whole has not really had to keep 'alive'? Or does the whole idea of 'ti guan' keep arts insular (out of fear, discretion, secrecy etc) and keeps people from exchanging information otherwise freely?

I'm curious also because I'm currently reassessing what is meant by 'traditional'. I think that too often 'tradition' is taken as a static reproduction of deadweight cultural fossil, when it might be more of a reflection of a realist mentality that 'traditional' martial artists had in regards to fighting ability. In that sense UFC might be more 'traditional' than many old traditions.

[cerebus]

In regards to 'live'-ness of the martial arts, do you think that without the threat of "ti guan", CMA as a whole has not really had to keep 'alive'?

Definitely. Because no one has to worry about actually being able to use their martial art, they can turn it into any kind of "art'" they wish. That's why we have stuff that get's so "new-agey" that even the new-agey people roll their eyes at it.

[Fubo]

Yang shou Zhong sent my Yang style teacher Ip Tai Tak to "visit" a prominent Hong Kong bagua teacher's school when Yang heard that the bagua teacher was talking shit about Yang style saying something to the effect that it was useless "weak" crap. Ip was sent to prove the teacher wrong.

On other occasions a prominent Choi Lei Fut teacher and 4th dan Judo guy "visited" Ip's home/school with the intention to test his skill. As I was told, this was a common type of situation a only few decades ago in Hong Kong, but less common now.

[Chris McKinley]

Since I've been referenced, I'll toss in my two cents as well. My view on challenges has always been the same. I don't do them, and I don't accept them. If you want a friendly contest to see whose skill is better, there are and always have been plenty of tournament venues for that. If your motives aren't friendly, then as long as I'm minding my own business, that makes you a predator by definition. My view on predators is that they make very good target practice.

I couldn't be bothered to give two shits about Chinese culture on the matter, or any excuses of "this is how we've always done it", or blah blah blah. Predatory violence gets rewarded with avoidance and/or a warning before the action is taken if possible, but once violent interaction is no longer avoidable, the predator gets destroyed the same way you would deal with a dangerous wild animal, period, I don't care who they are. I've got no tolerance for it.

[chimerical tortoise]

I'm a little surprised to learn of sifu's sending students out to ti guan, glad we don't get "the summons" anymore.

"motives", "intention", "test", those words answered what I was thinking about (what is ti guan, what makes it different from just exchange). Thank you all.

Chris,
I'm a scrawny guy and all, not at all interested about challenges; most people could kick my ass. I do my best to keep an open mind; being critical should not have an effect on having a good attitude. As long as the instructor is teaching things that I (a) think is reasonable, (b) can be substantiated in context of his/her practice, and (c) that I haven't heard said that way before, then I've got plenty to learn.

On a less serious note, methinks that in this day and age, it would not be that difficult to become a Sifu Hubbard.

[Doc Stier]

This sort of thing was common even in the USA at least through the 1980's. I have personally been "visited" by guys who wished to "teach" me more times than I can count through the years.

Although less frequent now, it still occurs, and usually without any legal actions thereafter. If someone is defeated under such circumstances, and witnesses were present, the last thing they generally want is a lawsuit or charges filed, etc., which would publicly broadcast their defeat, thus harming their teaching reputation and their school income.

The traditional rule of thumb is simple...don't challenge someone unless you are prepared to become their student in the event that you are defeated.

Doc

[johnwang]

I'm a little surprised to learn of sifu's sending students out to ti guan, glad we don't get "the summons" anymore.

It could be worse that that. Your teacher could order you to beat up your best friend just because your best friend made some unfair comment on him.

This sort of thing was common even in the USA at least through the 1980's. I have personally been "visited" by guys who wished to "teach" me more times than I can count through the years.

This had happened to me in both my comercial school and my UT informal class. One day a JKD instructor walked into my school and picked up a dumb bell from the ground and started to hit on his own head. He said, "This is how I train everyday (a taugh guy indeed)." He then asked me if he could spar with me, with punches only and no kicks (don't know why no kicks). I accepted his challenged and we had good time. It also happened in my UT informal class. When I started my class, a guy with Karate Gi walked in and asked me for a match. After I took care of him, I started my class as usual.

[SPJ]

1. In the old time, usually it is about territorial claim such as a village or a part of a town/city. The teacher that lost would leave town. So all the students or potential "clients" in the area will attend only one school that the teacher won.

this happened across all walks of life. such as from drama playing, singing, fishing, -- all the way to practice medicine etc.

2. friendly exchange of hands to learn from each other could happen all the time.

3. challenge matches are more serious. yes, there would be witness. however, rematch was quite common. You may ask for rematch. or you may ask your kung fu brother or sister to fight and then your teacher, and then your teacher's kung fu brother/sister, and then ---

this may drag on and on.

in the third case, you would be very careful, so that you do not need to fight with the all kung fu family from the other side.

---