Ti Guan

[C.J.Wang]

"School kicking" happens everywhere, and it is definitely not just a phenomenon that occurs within CMA community. Whenever someone holds the egotistic attitude that he or she is better than someone else in the business -- usually an authority -- and sets out to prove it, it can be looked at as a form of "school kicking." (e.g. Someone goes to a professor's lecture and challenges his ideas in front of all his students.)

But I might add that school kicking is not without its merits. In the old days it was a way to maintain the standard of martial arts since the teacher with lesser fighting skills would be driven out of town and not allowed to teach.

[johnwang]

Someone goes to a professor's lecture and challenges his ideas in front of all his students.

This remind me the "fugitive" movie made by Harrison Ford.

My teacher told me that a XingYi guy went to The Nanking CMA Institute and challenged the XingYi instructor there. He used Peng Chuan to attack and the XingYi instructor used a back fist (not Pi Chuan) on top of his head and knocked him down. He got back up, put his hands together as a bow and left without saying a word.

LF GM Han Chin-Tang also had changed Taiji master Yang Chenfu in Nanking CMA Institute but was stopped by the school principle Chang Zi-Jen.

A Shaolin master Liu Mu-Sheng had challenged a Taiji mater in the park in Taiwan because he didn't believe in Qi. Later on in 1980, Liu demonstrated in San Francisco by using chopticks to send Qi into 8 different directions and knock people off balance (big difference in his believe) and I was there in person.

[C.J.Wang]

A Shaolin master Liu Mu-Sheng had challenged a Taiji mater in the park in Taiwan because he didn't believe in Qi. Later on in 1980, Liu demonstrated in San Francisco by using chopticks to send Qi into 8 different directions and knock people off balance (big difference in his believe) and I was there in person.

I know an 80 year old master who was friends with Liu in the army. He liked Liu but treated his Qi tricks as jokes.

[D_Glenn]

My teacher used to go kick down schools when he was younger but there's a tradition in Yin Fu schools to not accept the teachers students when you beat him. So afterward when the teacher would offer them he would say something like "Why do I want your students? Look at them, they suck." And walk out. He said this obviously bred some serious contempt for himself and our school but a few of the students would keep coming around and beg to be accepted and some of them became good students and friends. I asked him one time if I need to practice everyday and he said "You? Probably not, but I painted a target on my back when I was younger and I can't walk down a street without constantly looking over my shoulder. It's not like in the movies, people don't come up and ask to challenge you, they wait in an alley and after you pass they attack from behind. 'All is fair in these fights because no one will ever care how you lost, only that you're on the ground so you lost.' It's because of those challenge matches that I have to practice everyday. If I could go back in time, not challenge those schools, and live a normal life, would I ? Ehh... probably not."



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[SPJ]

friendly rivery is a healthy thing. so that we all seek to improve.

competition produces a better fighter. win or lose, we all learn from it.

there was a story (made up).

there was a guy. he would travel village by village or town by town. he would challeng anyone. he is seeking some one better than him and be his teacher. his name was dong fang qiu bai. seeking defeat in the east. in a way, we are all like that. we practice and compete to get better. but not necessarily to be number one in everything. b/c there are so many people out there. if we would fight so many people, we will never finish the quest.

intuitively, ti guan would mean to embarass and destroy the name and properties of the school.

it may start with one against one, then the whole school against another school, and then--

[johnwang]

there was a guy. he would travel village by village or town by town.

My teacher and his SC brothers always traveled by bicycles and challenged one SC school after another. Sometime when he put on his SC jacket, everybody in that school took off their SC jacket (you cannot challenge anybody in SC if he doesn't have SC jacket on). It ended up he just picked up their SC jackets and walked away (usually this ended up with a group fist fight). My teacher even traveled to Mongolia to challenged the best Mongolia wrestler. One time he went to Beijin Don Jiao Men Shen to challenge a Judo master.

[Chris McKinley]

It's still all a bunch of horseshit. You can learn from any kind of violent exchange; that doesn't justify the violence. A martial culture that promotes more needless violence is one I want no part of, and one I am happy to ridicule publicly.

[meeks]

I'm a scrawny guy and all, not at all interested about challenges; most people could kick my ass. I do my best to keep an open mind; being critical should not have an effect on having a good attitude. As long as the instructor is teaching things that I (a) think is reasonable, (b) can be substantiated in context of his/her practice, and (c) that I haven't heard said that way before, then I've got plenty to learn.

well, give me time - you just joined... re-evaluate yourself in 3 months.

[cerebus]

All I can say is, if I ever open a school, please feel free to come in and challenge me to a fight. I may or may not win, but you'll leave knowing you've been in a fight...

[johnwang]

All I can say is, if I ever open a school, please feel free to come in and challenge me to a fight. I may or may not win, but you'll leave knowing you've been in a fight...

If I ever open another school again, please feel free to come in and challenge me to a fight, If I lose, I'll get a knife. If I still lose, I'll get a gun. If I still lose, I'll sue you.

[shawnsegler]

That spike ring/brain eating thing assures that I'm never going to try it.



S

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. You can bet I won't be trying to "Ti Guan" John Wang.... ever....

[Andy_S]

John:

So, what exactly happened when David Lin stormed into Yang's school? (Andy_S sits back, cracks lager, scratches balls...)

Nianfong:

I have never done MA in the US, but I have seen some pretty shite MA schools in Korea, Hong Kong and Malaysia. What makes you think it is so much better out here?

Chris:

RE: Not accepting challenges:
Your last comment reads pretty much like the reaction a lot of "traditional" teachers might have: After all, here comes someone who is set on destroying their livelihood (assuming the school owner is a pro teacher) and probably physically injuring them to boot. Albeit, your traditional CMA boy would presumably settle the score with fists, not gats.

[Chris McKinley]

Andy,

I neither know nor care, frankly, what a traditional Chinese teacher of martial arts might do under the circumstances of being threatened with assault. Humans have had all sorts of odd customs and beliefs. Personally, I don't look to "tradition" to determine what I'm supposed to believe, what my values are, or what I will allow myself to be subjected to by another person. I already know what my views on predatory violence are, even if I had never studied martial arts of any sort.

I don't go looking for that kind of trouble, so there's no reason for it to come looking for me. If it happens to show up, my policy is that the person will be told that I do not accept challenges and will be asked to leave. If they do not, they will be given a single warning that they are trespassing and that if they do not leave, the police will be called. If they still insist on assaulting either myself or any of my students, they will then be held at gunpoint until the police arrive. There's not really a lot of gray area for me on that particular matter.

Violence, for me, is not a game and it's not a method by which I engage in power jockeying with other males. I don't fight for fun, and I don't fight fair. Guys who want to do the belt-notching thing will find me not a lot of fun because I have no interest in playing the game.

[Ian]

-CMA teachers by and large aren't engaged in professional circles (i.e. people who put their lives on the line) so who cares what they do with their time?
-if you're clever enough, you should be able to see what skills are useful to you and whom can you learn them from, without the need for politics or power plays.
-there will be people who can't assess for themselves whether a teacher is worth learning from, but then, I'm not responsible for their training, so I don't really care.
-making enemies when you don't have to is neither smart nor conducive to survival.
-I'm interested in learning with a professional mindset, from professionals and/or damned skilled amateurs. People who condone ti guan don't seem like the type.