[history question] taijiquan was called chang quan?

[everything]

I've read various places taijiquan was called chang quan (long fist) or came from it before it ever got the name taijiquan. Since there seems to be no written record, what is the evidence for this theory? Where does this idea come from? Maybe just some of the moves overlap?

[johnwang]

All the Taiji building blocks such as:

- bow-arrow stance
- horse stance
- golden roaster stance
- empty stance
- 7 star stance
- striking tiger stance

are identical to those in the LF system. It can't be just coincitence.

[everything]

Ok, so the theory comes from some postures being the same, and LF supposedly predates taijiquan by at least 4 centuries. If LF was founded by an emperor it must've been popular and widely known at the time? So the Chens would be familiar with it? Chen seems to have a more apparent connection (longer kicks and pao chui) than the more recent taiji styles.

[SPJ]

chen tai ji used to be called Chen village boxing.

Tai Ji boxing has the theory of 13 postures. Chen Wang Ting compiled all of his learning from late ming army into a few routines. So that he may pass on among villagers as a civil defense---

the theory and the practice come together over time.

--

In Nan king kuo shu guan era, after some collection of some important styles.

there are 2 main categories or ke. Shao lin ke and wu dang ke.

Tai Ji belongs to wu dang ke

where as Ba Ji belongs to shao lin ke.

Tai Ji has big movements such as big opening and closing. It belongs to Long fist categories.

and yes

tai ji chang quan was a name used to describe the routines may be 108 postures

the precursor of modern routines.

it was lost.

somehow, some researches "uncovered" the routines.

1. yes, chen tai ji belongs to long fist family (nan king kuo shu guan categorization)

2. tai ji chang quan 108 postures are precusor of modern chen tai ji routines.

---

[SPJ]

another definition of chang quan

is continuous boxing.

since chen tai ji moves are continuous like the water flows or a big river flows.

thus the full name is tai ji continous fist.

[SPJ]

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_ce00XMTQ0OTcxNTY=.html

[bailewen]

In Nan king kuo shu guan era, after some collection of some important styles.

there are 2 main categories or ke. Shao lin ke and wu dang ke.

Tai Ji belongs to wu dang ke

where as Ba Ji belongs to shao lin ke.

*cough*....uh. nu uh...

Baji is WUDANG PAI baby.

[Bao]

t

I've read various places taijiquan was called chang quan (long fist)

This come from the taijiclassics: " Chang chuan is like the continous river". The name chang chuan has nothing to do with "long fist", but has to do with the continous or "long" movement of the water. If you study some classical chinese and read the text, it will become quite obvious what the name really means.

The original chen form was small frame. It is not very likely or logical that chang quan referred to long fist or any kind of physical movement. This is a also a late misinterpretation which large frame yang stylist like very much, as well as modern chen stylists.

[everything]

interesting and confusing. i remember reading the classic line in translation, but can't read classical chinese. guess there will never be a way to know. even the story of the taiji classics starting with a book in a shop is just mysterious and odd to me. wtf would it be doing there. something seems amiss.

also if the taijiquan jing supposedly by zhang san feng refers to chang quan in the text but the name of it is taijiquan jing, what accounts for the difference. is it that he commonly called the art chang quan but when whomever composed the verse in the classical style gave it a title, they decided to add the label taiji to quan in a poetic way to fit the taoist tone. why would there be two names? at some point a village quan got the label taiji but it doesn't seem clear when.

[Ron Panunto]

I agree Bao. Taijiquan was conceptualized by Chen Wanting and at that time (mid-1600's) it was only known as Chen Clan Boxing, and it is best represented by today's Xiaojia, or small frame. After Chen Chanxing taught it to Yang Luchan and YLC started teaching it in Beijing, the literati, such as the Li brothers who wrote all the so-called classics, started referring to it by a number of different names such as "long boxing," not to be confused with today's longfist; "rou quan," or soft boxing, and eventually taijiquan, probably in the late 1800's orvb early 1900's.

[Bao]

is it that he commonly called the art chang quan but when whomever composed the verse in the classical style gave it a title, they decided to add the label taiji to quan in a poetic way to fit the taoist tone. why would there be two names? at some point a village quan got the label taiji but it doesn't seem clear when.

Chang Chuan was first used by Wu stylists who were literati and were educated in Chinese philosophy. You are correct about the taoist tone. Water was a symbol for "De" ("power" as in dao de jing). There is a short daoist classic called "Taiyi sheng shui" or "The Taiyi (another name for the Tao) gives birth to water". So the movement of the river was taken as a symbol for a main idea of taijiquan. This shows some of the daoist (philosophical) influence.

The name Taijiquan was not born in the village, but used first by Yang Luchan's students.

[Ian]

another definition of chang quan

is continuous boxing.

since chen tai ji moves are continuous like the water flows or a big river flows.

thus the full name is tai ji continous fist.

no definition of 'chang' means 'continuous'.

I think you're thinking of the line:

chang quan zhe ru chang jiang da hai tao tao bu jue ye

it doesn't say anything about chang = continuous.

it says one who practices chang quan moves like the yangtze river or a great sea - 'flowing on and on continuously, without end'.

[martialartist]

what my research has been able to uncover:
when the yang family's martial art became famous, it got the name 'tai chi chuan'...
so then chen village martial art also used the name (since they share ancestry)

[cdobe]

no definition of 'chang' means 'continuous'.

I think you're thinking of the line:

chang quan zhe ru chang jiang da hai tao tao bu jue ye

it doesn't say anything about chang = continuous.

it says one who practices chang quan moves like the yangtze river or a great sea - 'flowing on and on continuously, without end'.

長 does carry the connotation of steadiness/being constant. In the context of the various writings it is very obvious that it means continuity. There is constant moving without any stops. That's the meaning.

[Ian]

no definition of 'chang' means 'continuous'.

I think you're thinking of the line:

chang quan zhe ru chang jiang da hai tao tao bu jue ye

it doesn't say anything about chang = continuous.

it says one who practices chang quan moves like the yangtze river or a great sea - 'flowing on and on continuously, without end'.

長 does carry the connotation of steadiness/being constant. In the context of the various writings it is very obvious that it means continuity. There is constant moving without any stops. That's the meaning.

You can have jing chang, which means frequent, or chang jiu, which means for a long time, but I've never heard of the definition where chang = continuous. It's similar, but not entirely accurate.

I believe the name taiji changquan contains 'chang' because the movements are long and slow and take a long time. There is a further requirement that you should practice chang quan continuously AS IF you're a flowing river or a great sea (that's what 'ru' means - like / as if). But I don't think it's accurate to say chang MEANS continuous, like a flowing like river.

Correct me if I'm wrong.