Bodywork: Sam Chin video and push hands

[everything]

I watched the video Ashe mentioned was on his blog several times: http://fallingleaveskungfu.com/content/ ... tion-force

Then I read Bodywork's comments several times (below). Well, so that all seems very simple, but for some odd reason, I've never gotten that. I tried this out in push hands the other day - especially the pull on left is balanced by emanating out on the right - which also sounds basic - but darn it if it didn't improve my push hands immediately. Maybe my fellow hippies just suck at p.h. but I got the drawing in effect, too. Didn't really realize I did that, but then two of my ph partners just somehow got sucked in before we both realized what happened. I was consciously thinking adding the rising/sinking at the same time. If this keeps working well, I can't wait to have a better "son of a bitch to throw" effect in my shen fa.

Hmm. very very good stuff. I suspect I'll have a lot of improvement from this simple change (pretty much all in my intent). So thanks for those comments below, Dan, and thanks Ashe for that Sam Chin video. Way better than I thought at first.

I think he did just fine. It’s really not a subject that can be expressed well. It needs to be shown and corrected in person. A simple way to look at it is to consider the spine as the central axis which you self turn from the Kua to the head. If you pull on the left you are balanced by emanating out from the right. It’s a circular movement around the spine.
Effects
It can lead to them feeling like they are falling into a hole -were they pushing on you- and they get a punch, kick or throw coming in on the right.
When it comes to speed later (when you loosen up) that slow movement you see him doing can be done extremely fast and back and forth to counter throws and to punch and kick. It is almost mechanically fast. Think of a door being hung from a rod in the middle; top to bottom. If you push on one side really fast...you are going to get slammed by the other side of the door revolving around to smack you. The harder you push, the harder the free rotating door comes around to smack you. Makes it a son of a bitch to get a handle on that door. But did the doro lose -it- balance while countering you?
It can lead to several nice throw set-ups because most normally trained people have a one-side-weighted approach to the martial arts. Done correctly with the waist drawing through the kau it can leave you feeling like a son of a bitch to throw while they feel a loss of control on contact.
Add rising energy in both hands, rising energy one side / sinking on the other...another in yo (yin yang) balance as well.
We can debate moving more from the waist, and less from the hips, but those are always subjects for debates. I have found more waist movement to be better for defense from grapplers.
There are all kinds of in yo ho balance methods that you build; one after the other that over time all work together so that your center is suspended in the middle and becomes elusive, quick to change and free.
Cheers
Dan

[ashe]

i think a lot folks have misunderstood what my Sifu is presenting in that clip though. he's not talking about pull on one side and push on the other. he's talking about generating pull and push as one circle on the point of application.

[johnwang]

pull and push as one circle on the point of application.

don't think there is much difference between these two. The reason that people spent time to do the "Gon rotation" was trying to achieve the "body unification" which is important in both IMA and EMA. I do believe that you can get your result faster if you obtain it from the "equipment training" instead of from the "Shaenfa training". This is why I like the "equipment training" so much. It forces you to develop the correct "body method (I love this term)" and you don't even realize it.

http://fallingleaveskungfu.com/content/ ... tion-force

http://johnswang.com/sc20.wmv

[everything]

Ashe, that was my interpretation as well. having this circle (and other circles and spirals) in mind changes the feeling. John, thanks, hadn't thought about trying it with equipment.

[Bodywork]

i think a lot folks have misunderstood what my Sifu is presenting in that clip though. he's not talking about pull on one side and push on the other. he's talking about generating pull and push as one circle on the point of application.

Ashe
That's exactly what I am talking about. Thats why i said its

It’s a circular movement around the spine.

There is no pulling or pushing per se. The only discussion may be of it being a misinterpretation of the motion at the point of contact.
1. You have to turn you "within you" in order to
2. Affect them at the point of contact.
You don't stand there and turn them at the point of contact with your body doing nothing or going around them. This self rotation is supported between upper and lower and on any point along the circle you have positive and negative energy; whether they are two point of contacting you, or they are grabbing your collar, or pushing on you.

I think more important than the idea of rotation is that it is also NOT happening with the hips as the driver-but with the waist drawing the legs and everything supported in contradicting spiraling motions. Your turn to the right can create a negative void for them to fall into, that is supported on the left. but the negative right can also be supported as rising up or sinking down or both. The Left can be rising or sinking in oppositition. So the spiraling happens in support of itself. As I stated early its great for grappling, and for grappling with kicks and punches as the contradicting energy makes a natural flow between hand hit, to knee or foot hit, to throw in a flow or power that is never empty.
I wouldn't care about equipment, I'd focus on solo training and progressively amping up with grappling people who don't you or your training goals at all or who think you are full of shit. You'll know soon enough what you need to work on.
Cheers
Dan

[Ian]

i think a lot folks have misunderstood what my Sifu is presenting in that clip though. he's not talking about pull on one side and push on the other. he's talking about generating pull and push as one circle on the point of application.

Ashe
That's exactly what I am talking about. Thats why i said its

It’s a circular movement around the spine.

(Ashe, correct me if I'm wrong, but..)

I don't think Sam Chin was talking about circular movement around the spine, or balancing your left side and right side in yin & yang.

He was talking about having complete yin & yang cycles at the point of contact . In this case it was on his left hand.

[everything]

1. You have to turn you "within you" in order to
2. Affect them at the point of contact.
You don't stand there and turn them at the point of contact with your body doing nothing or going around them. This self rotation is supported between upper and lower and on any point along the circle you have positive and negative energy; whether they are two point of contacting you, or they are grabbing your collar, or pushing on you.

I think more important than the idea of rotation is that it is also NOT happening with the hips as the driver-but with the waist drawing the legs and everything supported in contradicting spiraling motions. Your turn to the right can create a negative void for them to fall into, that is supported on the left. but the negative right can also be supported as rising up or sinking down or both. The Left can be rising or sinking in oppositition. So the spiraling happens in support of itself.

Thanks for the reply, Dan. That is pretty much exactly what I imagined (in my intent) and then bam, light bulb went off mentally and kinesthetically and things worked well. Your description seems simple and straightforward to follow now, but I could never get that before. Never clicked. I think I pulled on one side independently, not connected to the other side pushing. The particular push/pull example is just an example. This seemed to work in any push hands movement.

As I stated early its great for grappling, and for grappling with kicks and punches as the contradicting energy makes a natural flow between hand hit, to knee or foot hit, to throw in a flow or power that is never empty.
I wouldn't care about equipment, I'd focus on solo training and progressively amping up with grappling people who don't you or your training goals at all or who think you are full of shit. You'll know soon enough what you need to work on.
Cheers
Dan

I am really looking forward to trying and testing this out in grappling and then continuing working on it. I think I'll not go the equipment route either. Thanks a lot for explaining it. It really seems to make sense. Really seems to boil down to this. Some changes of yin/yang within circles. Keeping continuous change and power.

[everything]

i think a lot folks have misunderstood what my Sifu is presenting in that clip though. he's not talking about pull on one side and push on the other. he's talking about generating pull and push as one circle on the point of application.

Ashe
That's exactly what I am talking about. Thats why i said its

It’s a circular movement around the spine.

(Ashe, correct me if I'm wrong, but..)

I don't think Sam Chin was talking about circular movement around the spine, or balancing your left side and right side in yin & yang.

He was talking about having complete yin & yang cycles at the point of contact . In this case it was on his left hand.

at first I imagined, and somehow felt, a circle connecting through me and those two contact points, and probably the other person. also, I mentioned to one of my friends I was trying to do this and he found a way to borrow my big circle and spiral it to his original pushing hand. then I was wondering if I could get those tiny circles right at that point instead of having a big circle feeling. now getting into the taichee hippie thing, I've also been working this solo, trying to feel these spirals (yin yang cycles) internally. making some progress with the internal connections and chan si jin feeling, i think.

[oldtyger]

I admit I have not looked at the clip. Just read the comments. However it really sounds a lot like what my Wu style teacher has taught us. It's one of the Level I push hands drills that he calls the 4 Rounds, which I take to mean Circles. His English is not the best.

Here's an example: A and B face each other in push hands distance. A puts R hand on B's R wrist and L hand on B's R elbow as B offers the R forearm. B places L hand on A's R elbow. From this starting point, A pushes with L hand on B's R elbow. B performs a Big Round by neutralizing the push on the R elbow--following the line of force and turning a circle, matching speed and force. At the same time, B pushes with L hand on A's R elbow. So basically B becomes a spinning circle, like a top, neutralizing and countering simultaneously.

Rich

[Bodywork]

Of course those are simple models. One can look at different people and see all manner of different things. Turning for example; can be with the hips or with the waist, and can be simply horizontal, or horizontal with sinking or rising, or can be done with opposing spiraling energy. Turning by newbies is done in all manner of crazy ways' with just the shoulders, with pulling one side only, with pulling in and loading themselves on one side so they are easily thrown, on and on. Then you can consider its use in grappling and with creating entry points and causing set-ups.
Terminology is a quagmire, and the trouble with trying to adequately describe things, but I wonder if this phrase of "turning the person at the two contact points" is what Sam is really doing himself. I cannot imagine any positive result by turning a person "at two points." It is contacting with them, and then turning you, that turns them. Could be just semantics.
Dan

[everything]

oldtyger that is similar, i think - what you describe could be any circle throw or guard sweep - borrow at a point that turns a circle. that was sort of it but with a smaller circle, perhaps. round is probably a better word. we weren't moving much. it felt more like a circle passed right through me, if that makes any sense, not that i literally made a circular or spinning movement. like dan said, there could be a sinking or rising or both. that was initially the feeling i was playing with. then spirals. somehow the things dan said and pondering the video seemed to help me get myself out of my own way. very simple but i just wasn't doing it before.

not exactly the same but a few days later i had a similar experience trying to swim the butterfly. i think it's similar in that i had to get out my own way and then a sort of wave passes through almost effortlessly instead of herky jerky moves against your own moves. also similar in trying to eliminate all unnecessary extra movement, e.g., "swimming uphill" by getting too high out of the water on the inhale. i think if a circle throw is what you call level 1, this is level 2, still beginner but very key to future "body unification" improvements - like eliminating the swim uphill inefficiency to get to level 3.