Tai Chi knife

[KEND]

I have studied several styles of TCC but never came across a knife form-anyone seen one[one could say a saber form could be modified but I'm looking for a form that is purely for a knife]

[edededed]

I've seen such in baguazhang, but not taijiquan

[klonk]

Nope, and I looked for one! Anybody?

[klonk]

But wait, what am I saying? There are two answers to this question, neither of them useful.

1. You do not need the whole force of the body behind a knife. If you sharpen it properly, it will kill with very little force. So taiji, which is about whole body force, is irrelevant and maybe even a hindrance.

2. Any existing empty hand technique will work the same if you have a knife in the hand--only more so.

Just wait. Someone is sure to come along and color me stupid with a classical dagger form from Chan San Feng. You watch.

[Chris McKinley]

I believe a thread identical to this one appeared a little over a year ago, but I'm guessing your motivations for asking it are quite different than that one, which became a very naive discussion about the real useage of knife combat material from a Taijiquan perspective. In my limited experience, I do not believe that Taijiquan has a specific short blade form. This is as much for cultural reasons as any. Taijiquan already has specific jian material, so in that sense, extension of the art to bladed weapons has some coverage. However, Taijiquan's origins, depending I suppose on which version to which you subscribe, aren't really that of a blade culture with regard to the short blade. While every culture makes use of the knife to some degree, it's simply not as much endemic to the culture as it might be in places such as Southeast Asia, where the small blade's role of importance is reflected in its representation in the native martial arts.

Taijiquan simply did not come from such a culture and certainly, in its subsequent evolution, did not trend toward such an emphasis.

[Andy_S]

I'd guess that Bagua had knife, deer horn knives, judges pen forms, etc, as Yin Fu's job (royal enforcer retrieving antiques pinched from the Forbidden City during/after the Boxer Rebellion) required a lot of close-in work, indoors.

OTOH, most Northern Chinese MA were designed for battlefield or escort use - and in the great outdoors, a dagger ain't much use against a kwandao. AFAIK, no pre-modern Taijiquan systems include a knife set.

The Southern systems - which were widely employed by proto-Triads, and in the clan fighting in the alleys of Hakka Villages - are much stronger in terms of short weapons.

[bailewen]

I can agree with most all of what has been said but OTOH....

The only place I have seen anything even close to my Shifu's level of emptiness and "no force against force" has been from some of Sonny Umpad's students in San Francisco. Granted, mine is a fairly esoteric side branch of Yang Taiji but in any case this statement begs the question:

So taiji, which is about whole body force, is irrelevant and maybe even a hindrance.

Taiji is about whole body force?

See this is an old debate within taiji circles and the debate probably goes on because there's nothing I know of in the classics to address this point directly. There is some stuff about the 6 harmonies but sepcifically how they harmonize is not really stated. The interpretation is wide open. I would say that the stuff about "...that even a fly can not alight..." is particularly relevant as, with knife work, there is only yielding. Resistance gets you cut and force becomes pretty irrelevant.

Only in knife work have I seen emphasis placed on sensitivity and redirection comparable to what I have seen in Taiji.

Still doesn't mean I've seen a knife set, which I haven't, but Shifu does like to use the knife analogy when people bring up "structure" in terms of defense. I saw him once ask someone how good the structure was on an upper block if the attacking weapon was a knife.

[Andy_S]

RE: Omar's point above:
I'd say whole body force is for offense/counter-offense; the defense of Taiji is based on emptiness and sensitivity.

But that would be straying off topic...

[edededed]

I'd guess that Bagua had knife, deer horn knives, judges pen forms, etc, as Yin Fu's job (royal enforcer retrieving antiques pinched from the Forbidden City during/after the Boxer Rebellion) required a lot of close-in work, indoors.

OTOH, most Northern Chinese MA were designed for battlefield or escort use - and in the great outdoors, a dagger ain't much use against a kwandao. AFAIK, no pre-modern Taijiquan systems include a knife set.

The Southern systems - which were widely employed by proto-Triads, and in the clan fighting in the alleys of Hakka Villages - are much stronger in terms of short weapons.

Actually, bagua just happens to have nearly every weapon there is - from tiny to huge (including the guandao), and from standard to exotic. Some weapons that bagua does NOT have include some long rope weapons (like rope dart), as well as a few weapons more common to the southern systems, like the tiger fork and the bench.

Also, regarding whole body power - that is more of a xingyi (or bagua) thing, although taiji also has the 6 harmonies.

[klonk]

[...]

So taiji, which is about whole body force, is irrelevant and maybe even a hindrance.

Taiji is about whole body force?

See this is an old debate within taiji circles and the debate probably goes on because there's nothing I know of in the classics to address this point directly. There is some stuff about the 6 harmonies but sepcifically how they harmonize is not really stated. The interpretation is wide open. [...]

Uhh...maybe?! I think the line that says, 'to fajin, relax, sink and aim in one direction' points to my interpretation. (That's in Wu's "Expositions and Insights.") I would also approach this from the standpoint of common sense. Any fighting art needs a way to finish a fight.

[Ron Panunto]

Erle Montague does a taiji sword & knife form where the jian is held in the right hand and a short blade knife is held in the left hand. Apparently, one of his teachers told him that the left hand sword charm is supposed to be a knife, but it was a hidden secret.

[Bill]

I cannot see this at work but it says it's tai chi short knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87DmtsQx-E

[klonk]

I cannot see this at work but it says it's tai chi short knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87DmtsQx-E

Uh...It's a short form for a long knife (dao) of saber length. The title is apparently an ESL problem.

[Bill]

Dag nab it!!

[JoseFreitas]

I think that very few Chinese martial arts have developed forms for knife fighting (see below for Ted Mancuso's statement), but this doesn't mean that they don't have knife fighting, as an extension of their body art, although as has been pointed ou here, for cultural reasons it would never be the first choice, so it wouldn't be a priority.

What do you want out of knife-fighting training? If you really want to learn how to fight with a knife, pick a specialized art, such as Silat or a Filipino style. I'm sure other arts have it but I can't remember (Savate has an extensive curriculum for razors, or Folders, don't know the name in english).

Otherwise, some teachers have developed modern forms for the knife that take advantage of the body motion that a practitioner has developed in his art. This dude developed a knife form for a style of Xingyi that would be good for a Taiji player, since it's more "soft and rounded" than your typical Xingyi. I have it and it's OK, certainly learnable from video, and adaptable to the type of motion a Taiji player may have developed:

http://plumpub.com/sales/vcd4/coll_XYdai2.htm

(Dai Xin Yi Coiling Sword. Double VCD , See Main VCD page for prices, CHINESE ONLY

From Ted Mancuso: "Odd's Bodkin! And that's what we have here. A very thin half length straight knife. This is, as the full name suggests, essentially a piercing dagger. About nine inches long. Actually a pretty interesting set. Though we much appreciate short weapons we want to take a minute to explain that people often ask about them, thinkng they are "more practical." Chinese martial arts has a very different position from, say, Okinawan arts. They believe that short weapons are great and all that but hardly need to be taught because, being short enough, they are simply extensions of normal movement. Thus a Xin Yi practitioner should be able to immediately adapt any short weapon. Of course this is true but it's awfully intersting to see the formal intepretation and also to possibly pick up some special movements ancient masters though germane to this weapon.. "). I would add that it may be a piercing dagger, but it also probably cuts well because a lot of motion in the form is about circular "slicing" patterns.

Erle Montaigue has a set of 12 drills (or short-short forms) that are not bad either, and resemble some styles of Silat that emphasize explosive sudden patterns of knife motion. They would certainly be a good thing to add to any arsenal. Finally, some Silat guys have actual "forms" that you could work with to learn stuff, although your body motion might be different from theirs, but at least from a technique point of view it would be something to start with.

I can recommend this one, although it's about the Kriss (different way of holding the knife and so on), not exceptional but good. It includes simple, introductory forms, that could be adapted by a competent Taiji player as the start of some exploration of Taiji knife.

http://www.saudara-kaum.fr/product_info ... cts_id=108

(L'Ame du Kriss, Soul of the Kriss, has english dubbing in it)

Finally, I would add that I do not think this statement ("... You do not need the whole force of the body behind a knife. If you sharpen it properly, it will kill with very little force. So taiji, which is about whole body force, is irrelevant and maybe even a hindrance.
...") is very accurate. Taiji is also a lot about sensitivity, ability to develop a relationship with your opponent's motion and "sticking" to him. These would all be very good qualities to pick up in a knife "fight", God forbid I ever get into one. All the circular motions of the body and hands would fit very well with a knife method.