Bagua Quan Foundation book published

[Haoran]

I appologize for diverting the subject of this thread but it seems to me a good time back I posted a question about a picture I saw of an Internal MA's posture. In the picture the individual had his @ss sticking out similar to a Shaolin practioner. I keep thinking it was Mr. He Jinghan but I could never find that picture again. Can anyone help me with this? Is this the posture difference that is discussed between Bagua Quan and Bagua Zhang?

Thanks,

[shawnsegler]

Can anyone help me with this? Is this the posture difference that is discussed between Bagua Quan and Bagua Zhang?

Yes, although it is as always a subject that easily argued and not easily picked apart because it's kind of an experiential thing.

Suffice it say, the body mechanics are better described by where the force is generated and led by the postures rather than what would be easily assumed by the shape of things...if that makes any sense. I wish there was a drawing program that where I could easily make some diagrams around a human form to try and show how the forces are at work.

So anyway, the initial aspects of training the body method are pretty much backwards from the way most people do it, and while I assume the end result should be the same for both ways (i.e. a completely open where you are able to put your mind wherever you want to without feedback from the body impeding your will in any fashion) the way we do it and the way most people do it emphasizes different qualities initially and have different strengths and weaknesses.

The way it's different from how I've felt it in my body is that the "turtle back" way that most people do it moving the energy up the back and down the front initially tries to focus the mind on where the sensory apparatus is not normally focused..that is the back, and because the it is difficult to put your mind there when you haven't yet gone through the process the mental connection tends to work from the outside in...kind of like a cloak over the back of your body. It makes for a strong initial connection that creates strong root.

The way we do it starts from where the sense apparatus is already working to a degree, and so I liken it to having saran wrap pulled over the front of your body rather than a cloak on the back of it. The deep twisting starting from the front where you already have a deeper sense the inside of your body takes the mind more towards the center internally faster. There is less emphasis on using the external connection to create a unified root and more emphasis on using the using the deep internal connection to create a stronger sense of structure that can be maintained when root or contact with the ground is lost. Because most of the deep energetic forces are interacting deep within the body to affect how the structure balances itself it is less obvious how the mechanics work. That's why there is less emphasis on the obvious straight up and down with relation to the spine posturally. The spine is straight, but the need to have it completely vertical is negated or made less necessary by what's going on inside. I actually hate to say it but some of crazy ole Happehs models of this are pretty good regardless of how out of his mind he is in general.

Anyhoo, Master He is the expert. I can only reference these things on what's gone on in my body the last 6 or so years I've been doing this, so I'd listen to what he says.

It's just a different way of doing things with different benefits. Our way is good to go with lightness skills since there is less emphasis on rooting on the ground...it's just different.

Best,

S

[Haoran]

Interesting.. I guess until I can personally experience it I will never know.

I can say this, by practicing circle walking over the last nearly 2 years I've been away from my teacher I have found by applying our principles (turtle back, even shoulders, etc) and practicing nearly an hour each time, my body "self adjusts" upward. That is, my body automatically, governed/guided by the energy, adjusts to an errect alignment. The whole body elongates and I feel light. Don't know how that applies here but thought it worth a mention.

[D_Glenn]

Chris McKinley,

The postural difference in baguaquan is a part of the overall Yin Fu curriculum but it's a very specific practice that is taught to men over the age of 16 but would cease to be practiced before the age of 24. The effect of the posture on the lower back closes 'mingmen' (gate of life) point in the back, the purpose is to dampen the fire of life and the minster fire in order to decrease sexual desire and libido. You could see why the goal of the practice wouldn't be revealed to the student until after they went through it. There are obviously potential problems if taken too far as 'the fire of the gate of life' provides the original yuan qi and motive force/dong qi which is where the the ren, du, and chong meridians originate from. Normally men grow fat in the abdomen, while women grow fat below the waist and it appears that this practice also changes the meridian's function in men to the point that it causes fat to be deposited below the waist.

It's by no means an incorrect practice or something outside of the Yin Fu system of bagua but one would think twice about making it lifelong. Also as someone else mentioned in shaolin styles this is taught to the young men when standing in their horse stances and other postures.

Actually for men over 40 in Yin style bagua one would want to start spending more time in a posture with the tailbone tucked and in a kou stance called 'squeezing horse stance', as this will open 'mingmen' point and naturally stoke the fire and minister fire.


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[Chris McKinley]

D_Glenn,

No worries, but thanks for the heads up. I'm not interested in pursuing Baguaquan. I have been, in fact, one of the most outspoken critics on this forum of some of the U.S. subgroup's leadership, and not because they promote a very different structural configuration, which is their business, but rather for their conduct on this forum. I have been careful to be polite and civil on this thread out of respect for Mr. He, who has conducted himself with courtesy, dignity and generosity. To any longtime reader of this forum, it should be clear that I and certain others are not adherents to the Baguaquan approach, but that shouldn't prevent us from having a civil discussion.

As to the recommendations, I'm quite well aware of how these things work. I ask my questions out of interest, not ignorance, though I thank you for the valid recommendation.

[D_Glenn]

oops, I didn't mean 'you' specifically... edited above post.

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[oldtyger]

Thanks for the info on the book. Since I do have experience in this lineage I will definitely get this book.

As for the structure difference from other neijia...my own opinion is that we are all just too stuck in our own belief systems. We are solipsistic and self-centered. I had to unlearn 7 years of taijiquan in order to get anything out of baguaquan. It's very difficult to have a "beginner's mind" when you have invested so much in something you strongly believe. Although I have decided to focus on Wu style taijiquan, my Wu style teacher has taught very unorthodox and unique methods--including 2 body structures that are also not the standard turtle back and more similar to baguaquan's open body( although without the lumbar lordosis). Amazingly these postures are more rooted than the first, more traditional, method he taught--in the right context.

To add to Shawn's comment: the baguaquan posture can be very rooted, depending on how you are stepping. I've been easily able to hold my posture against friends using taijiquan postures--even though some baguaquan people feel the turtle back is better at rooting. The difference is I can move my feet a lot quicker than them. In circle walking I was always taught both the light and heavy stepping. So far I have yet to see anything that sophisticated in any taijiquan style I have studied( Yang, Chen, Wu--and I have learned the Leg Methods and Moving Steps in Wu style). Of course, taijiquan has neutralization--and that's my current focus because I think it's such an amazing skill.

Rich

[shawnsegler]

I have been, in fact, one of the most outspoken critics on this forum of some of the U.S. subgroup's leadership, and not because they promote a very different structural configuration, which is their business, but rather for their conduct on this forum

Watchoo talkin bout Willis?