Why is Cheng Man Ch'ing so underestimated?

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. Well, Cheng trained under Yang Cheng Fu. This is verified by many and was acknowledged when Yang was alive. Cheng had many highly experienced martial artists come to check his skills out and remain as converts to his teachings, this too has been well known. Many people during Cheng's life attested to the fact that Cheng had indeed fought challenge matches and though he was not always victorious, he won quite a few. Many of Cheng's students are acknowledged to be highly skilled (Ben LO, William C. C. Chen, and many others in Taiwan and Malaysia). Cheng wasn't a "God", but he also wasn't a "poser", and regardless of what one wishes to believe about Cheng's own abilities in Tai Chi he was apparently a gifted teacher.

[Doc Stier]

In my experience, Cheng Man Ch'ing is never "underestimated" -- Indeed his followers have elevated him to god-head. The Cheng Man Ch'ing phenomenon is a religious one. Apparently, a taiji practitioner of very average talent, Cheng Man Ch'ing made a big impression among ill-knowledgeable westerners eager to deify anyone "exotic." Cheng Man Ch'ing exerted his reputation over a gullible and largely unquestioning public of people who had never seen such practices before.

If we consider Wang Peisheng -- whose lineage is unquestionable and unquestioned, Cheng Man Ch'ing is but a poser.

baiyuantongbei:

Unlike most others posting on this thread, apparently including you, I actually met and interacted with Cheng Man-Ching on several occasions, as my late father-in-law was dating his daughter, and saw him perform both with and without weapons a number of times. I also personally witnessed a few of his gang control encounters on the streets of New York's Chinatown back in the day.

As such, with all due respect for your impassioned opinion, I think you go too far to say that Cheng was "a taiji practitioner of very average talent", or that Cheng was "a poser". Compared to other teachers in NYC at that time, guys like Wm. C.C. Chen, C.K. Chu, Donald Ahn, Herman Kauz, and others, Cheng Man-Ching consistently demonstrated a level of knowledge and skill well above and beyond what most would consider average. That's why many of them studied with Cheng for varying periods of time. Plus, Cheng was a gentleman, who would have happily engaged you in physical interaction to dispel your doubts.

It's very easy to trash a man's name and reputation after he has died, but it only serves to diminish your own in doing so!

Doc Stier

[chud]

Baiyuantongbei: That's a heck of a first post man, you're gonna make friends fast around here.

[H2O]

Not only is it very disrespectful to talk about the dead the way some people do here, it is also unnecesary. There are any living students of the CMC lineage who would be more than happy to give a demonstration.

In fact, if you're ever down in San Antonio Bai Yuan, I would be more than happy to give you a free lesson. That's a standing offer cause I'm such a nice guy.

[ShortFormMike]

baiyuan,

i was wondering who could post such nonsense, then i see it's your first one.

[everything]

"unquestioned lineage" and that line of b.s. is a whole other btdt topic.

[Doc Stier]

"unquestioned lineage" and that line of b.s. is a whole other btdt topic.

Ain't that the truth! We've been up and down that slippery slope many, many times before.

[H2O]

I think this is appropriate here.

[taiwandeutscher]

Yes, really great 1st post of baiyuantongbei.
An invitation for Taiwan is also out, there are at least 6, 8 ZMQ teachers I know of and can introduce you to, who also say "do whatever you want", lol.
And for tongbei, we had a total fraud comming over here several months ago, from China, so good or bad representatives of many schools and styles are to be found, so what?
Never met ZMQ, but I still wonder why so many hard core external guys ended up with him, doing the "hippie stuff"?

[Doc Stier]

What a hoot!

Looks like baiyuan may have inadvertently opened a proverbial Pandora's Box with his initial post.

Sometimes it is better for a man to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open his mouth and remove all doubt!