Taiji and knees!

[AllanF]

I have been practicing yang taiji in Shenyang for 3 years now and have been lucky enough to be given a 6 month sabbatical by my lovely wife in order to concentrate on my taiji. And for the first couple of months everything was going swimmingly but recently (a month give or take) my left knee (more specifically the lateral ligament on the outside of the knee) have been giving me jip!

It hurts when i do 'she shen xia shi' (snake creeps down) posture on the right (ie weight on right leg) as i turn to rise upward. I think the movement causes the knee to rotate forward from inside to out (counter clockwise). As i feel the joint open up and stretch at that point. Of course the 'snake creeps down posture on the right is follow by the same on the left, and this is a real problem now as i can not bend the knee too much without feeling pain. Afterwards the knee throbs and feels stiff for some time (an hour or so). There is no swelling but the joint feels like there is more fluid in it than the right knee.

For the medics/physios etc. out there is this, indeed, the lateral ligament problem? What can i do about it? RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation)?

And for everyone, i am very reluctant to completely stop training, especially as i have been given a chance to concentrate on it and that isn't likely to happen again, so is there exercises i can to to off set the possible loss of training the form?

The form, i am coming to understand, is about training connection and 'dong jin' or understanding energy. [previously i understood 'dong jin' to mean understanding your opponent's energy and how to use it now i thing that it really is about understanding your own energy first and foremost...i am sure many of you will be thinking 'duh', i am nothing if not a slow learner].So that said I wish to continue training the connections etc but to protect the knee. As a result I have started to do 'sumo' stomps akin to Aunkai as well as 5 prepartory exercises (a couple i have slightly modified) from Ma Jiangbao's taiji (as shown in the clip entitled Wu Tai Chi Chuan posted by Martin Boedicker as i have to use a proxy from inside the great firewall i'm unsure how to post the link).

Any advice regarding the knee and exercises most appreciated.

Allan

[johnwang]

It hurts when i do 'she shen xia shi' (snake creeps down) posture on the right (ie weight on right leg) as i turn to rise upward.

My teacher changed the striking tiger posture into a low 4-6 stance with knee pointing upward (instead of pointing sideway) for the reason that you have just described. If you use "she shen xia shi" as firemen's carry then the striking tiger posture make no sense.

[cerebus]

When I do "serpent descends" I keep the toe and the knee pointed in the same direction (toward the direction of movement). Of course different styles use different methods, but the way I learned seems more structurally sound to me. I have old knee injuries from my Army days, but this method doesn't cause them any pain.

[Kurt Robbins]

You might have a minor rip in the LCL and need to get it X-rayed and have a doctor look at it. I had a friend that had a minor rip in his LCL and had to wear a brace to isolate his knee for three weeks. If you don't take care of it and it is a minor/major tear, it goes from bad to worse.
If it is an LCL rip, your doctor has you wear a brace for three to four weeks and it heals. A major tear and you may need surgery.
It also might be a tear in the meniscus, as a leak of the synovial fluid can lead to painful rubbing.
My advice: if you have insurance go to the doctor, if you don't then isolate your knee for a week or two.

[cdobe]

As a result I have started to do 'sumo' stomps akin to Aunkai as well as 5 prepartory exercises (a couple i have slightly modified) from Ma Jiangbao's taiji (as shown in the clip entitled Wu Tai Chi Chuan posted by Martin Boedicker as i have to use a proxy from inside the great firewall i'm unsure how to post the link).

Any advice regarding the knee and exercises most appreciated.

Allan

Allan,
you shouldn't start these exercises on your own. There are quite a few people who get shoulder or back problems from them. If you do them, you have to know exactly what you're doing.

CD

[Bhassler]

The first thing to do is back way off on range of motion/depth of stance. Most knee pain is caused either by tightness in the hip or overactivity in the foot/calf/ankle. Back off enough so that you can really feel very clearly the ease of movement and weight transfer through the joints, and only go as far as you can maintain a symmetry of ease (note that I said ease and not range) through all the joints of the leg. Note that the path that your joints want you to take may differ from the path you think you're "supposed" to take with a movement. The joints are right; your brain is wrong.

Of course, your legs don't exist in isolation from your body (or mind) any more than your knee exists in isolation from the leg, so it's just as likely that your knee problem could stem from tight upper back, or jaw, or guilt about doing taiji while your wife works in a coal mine. It really doesn't matter what or why, you have to go from where you are and pay enough attention to pick up on the requests your body is making before it has to get insistent and hit you with a debilitating knee injury.

In terms of backing off, pick a favorite (easy) movement that you do in the form and do it very slowly and gently until it feels like it is effortless-- just keep making minor corrections until you feel like you're doing it the best you can possibly do it at this time with NO effort. Do it a couple of times that way to really get the feel in your body. Then either sit or stand and SLOWLY and in GREAT DETAIL imagine the whole form that way. Do it for as many times or as long as you can pay attention. Rest for a couple of minutes. Then, do the form with that same sense of ease. Only do it for as long as it remains super-easy, even if you only get through a small part of the form. Then you're done with form work for the day or at least a few hours. Repeat this sort of training until all your pain goes away (may be days, may be months).

In the meantime, you can continue to do qigong, meditation, silk-reeling, etc. to build energy and strength. Just don't go all He-man-- that's what got you where you are today. Take it easy and focus on staying evenly distributed throughout your whole self with the movements. Also note that all of these things can be very simply modified to be done sitting if you want to rest your knee. A lot of it can be done lying down as well.

Finally, bear in mind that it is what it is, and it's not supposed to be anything else. So if you get frustrated, just let it go. Maybe you aren't learning what you thought you'd learn with this little hiatus, but you're learning something of possibly much greater value. You can't change circumstances, so do your best and appreciate the good things instead of dwelling on the bad.

[AllanF]

Many thanks for all the advice, i have got myself a knee support and am only doing very light training.

Fingers crossed it will clear up quickly.

so it's just as likely that your knee problem could stem from tight upper back, or jaw, or guilt about doing taiji while your wife works in a coal mine.

Who has been talking?

[Brady]

BHassler, I gotta say I'm always impressed at your willingness to take the time and post thought out responses to these types of questions. Better advise would be hard to find.

[somatai]

what brady said

[Brady]

In addition I'd stay away from the knee support if at all possible. It may get you through temporarily, but they have been proven to decrease stabilizing muscle activation and only hide the biomechanical problem that's getting to you. If you have the time (which it seems you do), stay away from the bandaid approach.

[bailewen]

Getting at the cause of the problem can be really tricky but totally VITAL.

I had a couple brushes with knee stuff in my Baji training. At the time I just reported to Shifu what was going on and he kind of interviewed me about my training (most of it is on my own. Training =/= taking classes) and made an evaluation of how to adjust what I was doing. He followed up with some acupressure and the problem went away after about a week. That was like 4 years ago and I've had no knee issues since.

The tricky part was just figuring out what I was doing to cause the problem. Once we figured that out, the rest was cake.

[AllanF]

Brady, was not aware of that problem with knee support, duly noted, thanks.

Omar: That is also the crux of the matter for me, trying to figure out what the hell i am doing work to get this. As yet still not sure!

[D_Glenn]

I had a similar problem in the low postures, also usually just on one side and I realized because I never practice in front of a mirror that what I visualized the posture and movement to be wasn't what I was doing. So I'd recommend trying it front of mirror and comparing that to video of teachers doing it. I was shifting my pelvis and hips too far over onto the one leg then lowering when actually the shifting of the center from left to right is a smaller movement and the weight distribution is fairly equal, or in other words start transferring weight sooner, don't try to drop first.

[gretel]

this may be so basic that everyone already follows it, but i have to remind myself never to let my knees wobble in, or in other words, i try to keep my knee in line with my foot. and then be sure not to extend the knee beyond the toes.

[Michael Dasargo]

Hi Allen,

Let me know more details about the areas of pain, history, and what directions of movement hurt. until then:

"Jumpers Knee" is very common with CMArtist.

Symptoms of jumpers knee include pain near the knee cap. If this is the case, then:

Masssage the hamstrings,adductors (groin) and IT band, then apply heat to the knee for 20 minutes. Moxa works best, but hot water bottle will do.

Next do leg extensions 3 sets of 10 reps at slow speed (1 second to straighten, 2 second hold, and 4 second release).

Lastly, stretch the hamstrings, adductors, and IT band.

As far as training goes,the integrity of the principles/posture comes before depth or speed....low as you can,but stay as high as you must.

For appications, fast as you can, but slow as you must.