Taiji and knees!

[AllanF]

Thanks again for all the advice, it is clearly something i have 'developed' as for two years i had no problem so i will have to look again at how i do the postures.

The pain is only at the point where the lateral ligament attaches to the lower leg. I have also noted that i am getting an ache at the opposite side of the knee, where the calf muscle meets the knee, but i think that is due to over compensating as a result of the ligament problem.

Also i have stopped stretching, lazy, so that may also be a consideration and will redress that post haste.

Anyhoo i have now been forced to rest it as my 3 year old has been diagnosed with hand foot and mouth disease so i will be caring for her for a couple of weeks, so no practice.

[Chanchu]

Allen,
Rest it don't do the low stances to the pint of bringing on a pain response and when you practice do NOT let your patella go past your toes in bow stance, step back to repulse monkey etc.. If you knee cap goes past your toes in flexed weight bearing it puts heavy stress's on the joint and can start and /or contribute to knee problems...
Ice for swelling, edema and pain dit dah jiao etc, rest let it heal. stake standing to tolerance without bringing on incremental pain response to recondition when tolerated- Its what I did in my case--
Worked for me- see the dit dah doc...get checked out before anything..
get better soon!

[Michael]

Hi Allan,

Doc Stier gave me some advice a couple of years ago about my taiji knee pain that I found was very useful for all joint problems, which he explained were subject to control by the kidney/urinary bladder energy system. Because the kidney is the water element, and all joints require proper lubrication to maintain their physical alignment (Doc says it much better, but his forum is off-line at the moment so I'm paraphrasing), tonification of two acupuncture points using qi transmission can solve a lot of joint problems. My own experience has borne this out.

I was advised to send qi to Lung-8 and Kidney-7 on both sides, a total of four points, for six minutes each, every day, ideally between the hours of 3-7 PM local time (in China, no worries, in places with daylight savings you have to correct) because these hours are the ascendance of energy for the kidney/urinary bladder meridian. Other times of the day are fine, and in my experience there was little difference when I did it. Also, I found two minutes for each point was sufficient for my knee pain and other joint problems. YMMV.

The rational here is based on Chinese Medicine Five Elemental Processes Theory (wu xing sheng ke qi), metal produces water and Lung-8 is the water point of the Lung Meridian and Kidney-7 is the water point of the Kidney Meridian. That's as much as I can explain about it, but what I do know is that it certainly works. This is very general, but also a very effective method to solve joint pain, but certainly if you have a torn ligament, that would need attention, although the ligament might have gotten damaged because of underlying joint misalignment that could be solved by tonifying these two points.

Let me know if you want more info. on how to locate the points or about qi transmission. I teach qigong and qi transmission and might even be able to so without face-to-face for an experienced qigong practitioner. But yeah, this remedy will depend on the qi transmission ability of the "patient", which is a pretty big variable.

Also, someone mentioned Tom Bisio's book, A Tooth from the Tiger's Mouth, which is an excellent reference and good read. Check it out online!

Best wishes,
Michael

[Doc Stier]

Hi Allan,

Doc Stier gave me some advice a couple of years ago about my taiji knee pain that I found was very useful for all joint problems, which he explained were subject to control by the kidney/urinary bladder energy system. Because the kidney is the water element, and all joints require proper lubrication to maintain their physical alignment (Doc says it much better, but his forum is off-line at the moment so I'm paraphrasing), tonification of two acupuncture points using qi transmission can solve a lot of joint problems. My own experience has borne this out.

I was advised to send qi to Lung-8 and Kidney-7 on both sides, a total of four points, for six minutes each, every day, ideally between the hours of 3-7 PM local time (in China, no worries, in places with daylight savings you have to correct) because these hours are the ascendance of energy for the kidney/urinary bladder meridian. Other times of the day are fine, and in my experience there was little difference when I did it. Also, I found two minutes for each point was sufficient for my knee pain and other joint problems. YMMV.

The rational here is based on Chinese Medicine Five Elemental Processes Theory (wu xing sheng ke qi), metal produces water and Lung-8 is the water point of the Lung Meridian and Kidney-7 is the water point of the Kidney Meridian. That's as much as I can explain about it, but what I do know is that it certainly works. This is very general, but also a very effective method to solve joint pain, but certainly if you have a torn ligament, that would need attention, although the ligament might have gotten damaged because of underlying joint misalignment that could be solved by tonifying these two points.

Michael:

Lung #8 and Kidney #7 are actually the Metal Element Points on their respective meridian channels. They are thus stimulated according to the Mother-Child Law/Generative Cycle of the Five Element Phases to increase intrinsic energy flow through both channels in order to supplement and tonify the Water Element Yin (-) Organs, the Kidneys.

In turn, according to Classical Oriental Medicine, this helps normalize the anatomical and physiological status of other body parts which depend on the Renal System for normal health and function, especially the teeth, the bones, and all of the joints in the body, particularly the knee joints.

Doc Stier

[Michael]

Thanks, that's why you're the Doc and I'm the guy who should've checked his acupuncture book.

[Doc Stier]

Thanks, that's why you're the Doc and I'm the guy who should've checked his acupuncture book.

Not a problem.

Carry on!

Doc Stier

[r.anderson]

Allan,
Firstly, I am curious about what your instructor(s) have had to say about this. In my own training I've been told that I should do anything physical in Tai Chi at 70%, so if you are dropping 2', instead drop 16-17". The other rule is that everyone's form will look a little different from their neighbors' based on height, weight, body-type, etc. If your sabbatical brought you in contact with people much shorter than you, with greater flexibility or proportionally longer legs you might have over-extended yourself in trying to keep up. I've heard this happening with other people given the opportunity to do retreats and such: you're accustomed to working out two to three ties a week and then you're going 24/7...Tai Chi definitely works in higher stances as far as the jins are concerned, look at the Wu style. Give your knee the rest it needs and practice where, and what you can. Certainly your self defense regimen should not lead you injure your body permanently.

Thank you for bringing this up. First because I am jealous of your opportunity , but also because this is an important topic and your experience might spare someone from a similar injury down the road.

[AllanF]

My instructor told me to relax my knees! When i inquired as how to do that, he explained the secret is still in the hips and forgetting about the knee to an extent. (ie concentrate on relaxing the hips more and the knee will follow). So i have been doing that, which helps but i will have to rest it a lot more anyway as yesterday i did the form 3 times after a week off and it was a tad sore!

I have been with my teacher for 3 year training everyday with him for 2/3 hours for about 2 of those but now i have been doing more practice on my own so the time was up to around 5 hours (though obviously not at the moment). I think my poor flexibility may also play a part, so i am going to use the time to stretch more and do some 'lighter' exercises. It had occurred to me that our taiji form is basically only 2/3 movements done in different ways. So i intend to concentrate of those movements done in a higher stance. I was doing this for a month or so anyway and had no problems, and after consulting my teacher he confirmed that these movement were all that was in the form really and so long as i focused on the internal mechanism and not the external arms/body turning then i should practice them if i can't do the form. Indeed i noticed yesterday when i was practicing PH that i was able to suck my opponent into me a lot easier just by doing these same exercises while in contact with the opponent. Of course unless i can reproduce the same effect consistantly with various opponents i may have just got lucky. Research continues!

So in short my solution is to try and increase my flexability and do the single movement exercises. And i will see how that works out.

Thanks for all the advice and info from one and all.

Allan