Is drills training the true traditional training method?

[C.J.Wang]

I don't think that form (tao-lu) is a modern invention. To me, form is defined by series of single repetitive movements (dan-chao) joined together for specific purposes. So that practicing single repetitive movements, few movements linked together, or the whole form all have their purposes.

[Ron Panunto]

Solo drills have benefit, but IMHO real self defense skills come from two-person interactive drills that also teach distance, timing, and contact.

[Doc Stier]

The repetitive practice of individuals movements, or combination of movements, both with and without a live partner, is unquestionably the best way to master their proper physical performance. As a solo practice, such repetitive training develops correct body structure and alignment, general balance and body control, physical strength and flexibility, as well as correct anatomical synchronization of all body parts through the movement pattern, among other things.

As a partner practice, such repetitive training develops correct timing, bridging skills, proper angles of placement, the use of proper footwork, and the ability to control the interval gap between self and opponent, to name but a few skills acquired through this manner of training.

As the number of individual movements and techniques increased in any fighting style or system, the so called 'Form Sets' were composed as a means of efficiently cataloging and remembering all of the different movements through a fixed routine with names assigned to each form and to each individual movement technique. In some cases, the sets also serve as a dynamic means of internal strengthening, or as moving chi-kung sets.

Form set training as such has become a common hallmark of virtually all Asian martial arts, and is therefore certainly "traditional training". Nonetheless, the martial form sets are not necessarily meant to be fixed suggestions of preferences for combining the movement patterns as fighting applications, because fighting applications must of necessity be more automatically spontaneous and free flowing according to opportunity and circumstance, IMO.

Doc Stier

[Chris McKinley]

I most definitely agree with Ron. Smaller, isolated drills are good for developing your movement mechanics. This and longer forms training represent the Platonic Ideal aspect of training. It's useful beyond just basic mechanics in that it allows you to overlearn your movement over and above what's actually required for effectiveness in combat. Overlearning is good because it provides an insurance policy against Murphy and his stupid Law, as well as the effects of adrenalin.

That being so, though, at the end of the day form mechanics and shen fa do not a fighter make. Don't get me wrong; they're great to have and they do improve your ability to do what you're trying to do in a fight, so they're worth busting some ass on. However, plenty of people have, do, and will fight effectively without having ever trained even a single session of shen fa, not even once. And the reverse is certainly not true....you cannot train exclusively in shen fa and delude yourself into thinking you have magically gained the distance, timing, focus under pressure, physical toughness, etc. that come with mixing it up with another live human being to be a skilled fighter.


P.S. Agree with Doc as well on all points. In fact, as an example of what some of us seem to be saying, take a look at either modern MMA (I know, another MMA reference) or just a simple old school boxing gym. Those guys work the hell out of basic techniques, but they do so with plenty of partner work, moving quickly up to a realistic level of resistance, where they spend the rest of their training careers. As a result, they produce an average student with much greater real fighting ability than methods which spend a disproportionate (or even exclusive) amount of time training shen fa and other solo practices.

Could the MMA/boxers' technique/mechanics/connection/shen fa be improved with precisely tailored solo practice? Sure. Is it what's going to determine whether or not they can fight effectively? Not even remotely.

[Doc Stier]

In fact, as an example of what some of us seem to be saying, take a look at either modern MMA (I know, another MMA reference) or just a simple old school boxing gym. Those guys work the hell out of basic techniques, but they do so with plenty of partner work, moving quickly up to a realistic level of resistance, where they spend the rest of their training careers. As a result, they produce an average student with much greater real fighting ability than methods which spend a disproportionate (or even exclusive) amount of time training shen fa and other solo practices.

Could the MMA/boxers' technique/mechanics/connection/shen fa be improved with precisely tailored solo practice? Sure. Is it what's going to determine whether or not they can fight effectively? Not even remotely.

Also good points.

Western boxers incorporate relatively few techniques by comparison to most Asian fighting arts. As a competitive sport, no kicks are allowed, no grappling or throwing allowed, simple stances and footwork, and fairly restrictive rules of engagement. Even with the inclusion of some kicking and grappling outside the ring, Western boxing used as a street fighting method is comparatively simple in contrast to most martial arts, and thus normally doesn't include form set training.

And yet, this apparent simplicity is essentially its greatest asset. Since there are only a limited number of common techniques and combinations, the Western style boxer is more free to train the basic material through solo shadow boxing, bagwork, and lots of contact sparring in the ring with a live partner. Actual fighting skills develop accordingly, because the focus is on practical application, not on visual performance.

Martial artists can benefit by training their core material and techniques in a similar manner, IMO.

Doc Stier

[I am...]

In fact, as an example of what some of us seem to be saying, take a look at either modern MMA (I know, another MMA reference) or just a simple old school boxing gym. Those guys work the hell out of basic techniques, but they do so with plenty of partner work, moving quickly up to a realistic level of resistance, where they spend the rest of their training careers. As a result, they produce an average student with much greater real fighting ability than methods which spend a disproportionate (or even exclusive) amount of time training shen fa and other solo practices.

Could the MMA/boxers' technique/mechanics/connection/shen fa be improved with precisely tailored solo practice? Sure. Is it what's going to determine whether or not they can fight effectively? Not even remotely.

Also good points.

Western boxers incorporate relatively few techniques by comparison to most Asian fighting arts. As a competitive sport, no kicks are allowed, no grappling or throwing allowed, simple stances and footwork, and fairly restrictive rules of engagement. Even with the inclusion of some kicking and grappling outside the ring, Western boxing used as a street fighting method is comparatively simple in contrast to most martial arts, and thus normally doesn't include form set training.

And yet, this apparent simplicity is essentially its greatest asset. Since there are only a limited number of common techniques and combinations, the Western style boxer is more free to train the basic material through solo shadow boxing, bagwork, and lots of contact sparring in the ring with a live partner. Actual fighting skills develop accordingly, because the focus is on practical application, not on visual performance.

Martial artists can benefit by training their core material and techniques in a similar manner, IMO.

Doc Stier

I couldn't agree more. It has been my experience as well that things generally look a certain way, because of how they are done after lots of training and a "developed body understanding" for lack of a better term. Approaching training something into the body by trying to make it look a certain way, instead of by developing the skills that give it that look, seems to be a deviation from the path towards proficiency.

[Jeice]

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I've always viewed forms as textbooks of drills and concepts, you learn the form, then you apply the form. I think it's easier to remember a minute long form than to remember however many drills it contains individually, and the form concept was seen as a "good idea" for this. I mean, in non-form based styles, it can be very difficult to rapidly recall any specific volume of knowledge for the purpose of teaching (BJJ is a great example of this, HUGE volumes of knowledge and techniques, but very difficult to teach in a regimented manner), with forms the lessons "can be" implicit in the practice provided you have proper guidance.

[everything]

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I've always viewed forms as textbooks of drills and concepts, you learn the form, then you apply the form. I think it's easier to remember a minute long form than to remember however many drills it contains individually, and the form concept was seen as a "good idea" for this. I mean, in non-form based styles, it can be very difficult to rapidly recall any specific volume of knowledge for the purpose of teaching (BJJ is a great example of this, HUGE volumes of knowledge and techniques, but very difficult to teach in a regimented manner), with forms the lessons "can be" implicit in the practice provided you have proper guidance.

hmm, yeah, a form seems efficient from a memory perspective, especially in older times before widespread literacy, books, and video and the need for secrecy.

[meeks]

it's my understanding that most training was partner based learning mixed with conditioning exercises. after the cultural revolution when they were forced to teach openly, they stripped out the partner stuff and conditioning and focused only on forms as a way of defying the order to teach anyone, as well as protecting themselves from sharing their secrets.

[johnwang]

it's my understanding that most training was partner based learning mixed with conditioning exercises. after the cultural revolution when they were forced to teach openly, they stripped out the partner stuff and conditioning and focused only on forms as a way of defying the order to teach anyone, as well as protecting themselves from sharing their secrets.

A lot of forms was created after the end of the cold weapon and the beginning of the hot weapon, so CMA people could make a living by teaching forms only. I had chatted with a PM master in Shandong. I told him that I know 5 PM forms. He said, "How long can you keep your students by just 5 forms?" He then told me that he kenw more than 20. I didn't tell him that PM is only one of many styles that I train.

[edededed]

Wing chun teachers must be very good, as they only have a total of 3 forms (+ 1 dummy form and 2 weapons)...

Taijiquan teachers had a big problem before as they only had 1 form (+2-3 weapons)... So they went and made lots of smaller forms (24 step, 48 step, combination, etc.)

[jtan]

Wing chun teachers must be very good, as they only have a total of 3 forms (+ 1 dummy form and 2 weapons)...

Taijiquan teachers had a big problem before as they only had 1 form (+2-3 weapons)... So they went and made lots of smaller forms (24 step, 48 step, combination, etc.)

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No - ( I am speaking for tai ji - although I have heard that wing chun also has more than just those weapons) - from the chen family - there are 2 empty hand forms, pushing hand drills - moving and stationary single app techniques, single saber, sword, double saber, spear, general kwan's knife and other later added on forms (such as twin swords, taiji club etc.)

Yang family and their derivations - empty hand form, 2 man set, sword, saber, spear. push hand techniques moving and stationary, qi kung. Empty hand forms trained upper, middle and lower basins - each with their own timing and movement. There were also a differentiation between large and small movements.

I have seen on Youtube Ma yueh liang demonstrate everthing listed above + wu fast form + partnered sword practice.

[edededed]

I am just joking, of course some taijiquan styles do have 2 main hand forms, and some have a 2-person form as well; still, we cannot deny that a lot of extraneous forms were created in modern times that some teachers seem to use as fluff to add to their curriculums ("You wanna learn long form? First you have to learn 24 step, then 36 step, than 48 step, then 52.5 step, etc....")

Ma Yueliang's taijiquan system is quite big compared to many others, with multiple forms for the same weapon, for example (most only have one).

[johnwang]

If you train the 1st or the 2nd drill in this clip, will you train it in 1 step? 2 steps? or 3 steps as shown here? Do you think when you use this 1,2,3 combo, your opponent's hook punch may give you some trouble (one of my favor move against straight punches)?

[SPJ]

these drills or single posture that consists of 3 or more moves are practiced over and over left and right.

as many times as you want.

the first 6 drills are 6 ways of opening the door

1. fierce tiger climbing the mountain, you rake down the opponent's high defending arms and then attack high as if a tiger climbing a mountain.

2. wild horse kicking the feeding trough, you hammer fist downward to hit the opponent's mid punch or mid defending arm and then hit mid or high level.

3. white snake sticking out its tonge. upward piercing palm to deflect the opponent's high attacking arm and then hit high.

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they represent some key tactics and strategy in opening the door.

of course, there are many other moves with the same ideas and there are also many variations of the moves.

for most people, via repetition, we learn to be better in the moves both in power and speed over time.

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at the same time, we have to remind ourself the purpose or why we do these moves

so we may rake down or climb as many times as we need to, once we have an opening, we then deliver the attack.

along the same vein, we may use hammer fist downward or upward piercing palm as many times as we need to before we deliver the final attack in the end.

etc etc.

these are called dan shou cao or single hand method drills.

and yes we may combine or mix them,

the idea is to drill the single method over and over, once we are good, then we start to mix or change.

one downward hammer fist and then one upward piercing palm etc etc.

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