Experiences with Dr. Xie Peiqi and other Students

[Bob]

A very descriptively honest story about how a practitioner came to learn and appreciate the the bagua of Dr. Xie Peiqi/He Jinbao---be forewarned that some of the descriptions and reactions are brutally honest and is what makes this one of the best reads I have come across in a long time:

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/sinicus/he_jinbao-school.htm

XIE PEIQI / HE JINBAO)

YINSHI BAGUAZHANG

By Loriano Belluomini

English version kindly revised by J. Freitas, Portugal

I admit that the first time I ever saw the Bagua of Xie Peiqi (in the distant year of 1993, if I recall correctly) I was disappointed. It didn't have anything in any way of the Baguazhang to which I had been accustomed, which was the one with the beautiful movements typical of Liu Jingru, my teacher. Also the presenter of the style, Doctor Xie, didn't have a particularly attractive look and I have to say that some of the qualities that had struck me in Liu included his elegance and his beautiful aspect. Disappointments succeeded one another. Liu Jingru had showed me some Yin Fu Bagua coming from the lineage of He Zhongqi: at the time, I had only a vague understanding of it, and had been impressed with the small, quick, natural footsteps. Nothing of the kind in Xie's Baguazhang (BGZ) . The footsteps were strange: since Xie had decreed that the Dragon Form was the most adequate for me, I was then subject to an improbable form of bai bu in which the tips of the two feet literally went in opposite directions. Another disappointment was the scarce consideration that Xie had of Liu (but, I have to say, also of other teachers). A third disappointment was the revelation that there wasn't any Single Change in the BGZ of Yin Fu (Danhuan zhang) or Double Change (Shuanghuan zhang) - I would discover subsequently that although the name existed in the system, there wasn't even the classical Shunshi zhang, or "Palm that follows the direction [or 'the strength']" . This made me find myself again with an impoverished experience which made me feel uneasy. Even the formalities of payment for the lessons left me feeling uncertain. Xie Peiqi didn't want to be paid! Naturally this implied that a possible future gift was owed and needed to be equivalent in value to what I had learned: expensive as well as uncertain due to what he might or not have deemed to be worthy. . . (continued on the link)

[Bob]

At the end of the article is a quote from Liu Yunqiao:

"Liu Yunqiao, also him of the Yin school but from the line of Gong Baotian, for instance, said in 1991 that in BGZ "bu fajin", there is no expression of strength!"

I wonder what the context of this quote is about? "Bu fajin" is not my experience of the his teachings in bagua [at the initial levels of training indeed there is "bu fajin" but that is not characteristic of how he understood bagua at its highest levels}

[Miro]

We can only guess what exactly Liu Yunqiao meant by his expression "bu fajin" - one explanation is that at really high level you do not need to fa jin, you do not need to strike at all (oh well, it sounds like first-class BS again), you just go through your opponent without actual fighting. Remember Gong Baotian's fight with that mantis master? He even did not notice that he lost. Or when he did small holes into the shirt of another opponent just by fingers without the opponent noticing those holes?

[edededed]

Baguazhang naturally prefers anjing, which is unseen power; thus, normally one can say that there is no fajing.

[Bob]

Miro, Ededed:

Initially, when I first started learning the bagua, especially with regard to circle walking, it was emphasized that there was to be no expression of power---smooth, full-body movements. Many years later, when I learned what we refer to as the "bagua combination form" I saw and was told that indeed bagua had fajin expression and it was very different from that employed in Liu's bajiquan. I saw my teacher demonstrate it and was told that it was part of the training. This has been re-inforced by what I have seen in Dr. Xie Peiqi's system.

However, Liu also learned dian xue---which I believe is characterized primarily by anjing---I can't be certain but I am willing to bet the house, Liu's dian xue came from his relationship with Gong Bao Tian and the usage of bagua needles and judge's pen. My teacher saw a instrument that Liu had---it was paper like wheel, that when you turned it, it indicated the time of day, point/cavity and season of where the strike could produce the most damage. After his death, it seems that instrument disappeared and no one has seen it since.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

[edededed]

Sounds like an interesting device!

You are right, though - in fact bagua does have a special kind of fajing as well, along with the anjing. What this actually is is not agreed upon by the various lineages, though...

As for dianxue - also conflicting accounts on this - some say bagua never had dianxue (it is from Shaolin), others say that it did but is lost, etc. At the least, it IS true that some bagua and xingyi masters know/knew dianxue nevertheless.

[C.J.Wang]

At the end of the article is a quote from Liu Yunqiao:

"Liu Yunqiao, also him of the Yin school but from the line of Gong Baotian, for instance, said in 1991 that in BGZ "bu fajin", there is no expression of strength!"

I wonder what the context of this quote is about? "Bu fajin" is not my experience of the his teachings in bagua [at the initial levels of training indeed there is "bu fajin" but that is not characteristic of how he understood bagua at its highest levels}

"Bu fajin" -- no fajin -- is THE most important concept my Bagua teacher stresses over and over again in his teaching.
The body quality of an expert Bagua practitioner is comparable to, in his own words, that of a "giant piece of coiled, flexible steel" -- with the energy always present rather than having to be expressed or issued.

When undistrubed, the body appears normal and soft; but as soon as it makes contact with any incoming force from the opponent, the "flexible steel" body is compressed and snaps right back in order to maintain its structural integrity. Thus the expression of power is not the result of purposely issuing, but rather a natural phenomenon of the body when it's placed under pressure.

It's this continuous, reflexive, and ever-present type of energy that makes Bagua such a formidible fighting art because the power is constantly there just waiting to connect. In other styles that stress power issuing, with each fajin, the apex of the power only lasts for a split second. If the initial fajin fails to connect with the opponent, another fajin is needed -- and another -- and another until the job is done.

Think of the difference between a regular pistol and a high-pressurized spray nozzle with a constant, steady supply of water. With the pistol, it only has power when the trigger is pulled each time and a bullet is fired; the spray nozzle, on the other hand, has pressurized water shooting out all the time so that, as long as it's turned on, it'll wet anything that it's pointed at.

[D_Glenn]

We have 3 ways of practicing to get to the point that CJ mentioned above. The first is to 'draw out the way' which is relaxed, smooth and with no power. Then you need to learn/practice with 'fa li' in order to put out power. Learning to 'fa li' in itself is a long, sometimes painful process, and it's what is said to take the first 2-3 years of steady practice in order to coordinate the spine into the movements, once it's learned though it's like riding a bicycle- you never lose it. Then once you have the power in the movements the real way that bagua is applied and the mainstay of it's practice is the 3rd method which is like a blending of the first 2 methods, it's called 'hunyuan' or 'containing/flowing the power' and is like the qualities that CJ mentioned above, it's always there and throughout the body, you can 'fa li' or (higher level) 'fan shen' (reverse the power) at any point but ideally you don't need to.

'Fan shen' (reverse the body) is done with a force that can look like a 'fajin' but actually the effect is more like 'removing the opponent's power' and the jin is actually coming back to the dantian. It's called 'Fan' (reverse) because it is basically moving the spine in the complete opposite way that it normally moves when you 'fali', so you could actually 'fali' then immediately 'fan' and there is no real outside expression of the forces but the opponent would feel it.

'Fan shen' can also be combined with special breathing where you inhale on the strike and that's how the methods of 'zhan' and 'nian' (sticking and adhering) are done.

.

[C.J.Wang]

We have 3 ways of practicing to get to the point that CJ mentioned above. The first is to 'draw out the way' which is relaxed, smooth and with no power. Then you need to learn/practice with 'fa li' in order to put out power. Learning to 'fa li' in itself is a long, sometimes painful process, and it's what is said to take the first 2-3 years of steady practice in order to coordinate the spine into the movements, once it's learned though it's like riding a bicycle- you never lose it. Then once you have the power in the movements the real way that bagua is applied and the mainstay of it's practice is the 3rd method which is like a blending of the first 2 methods, it's called 'hunyuan' or 'containing/flowing the power' and is like the qualities that CJ mentioned above, it's always there and throughout the body, you can 'fa li' or (higher level) 'fan shen' (reverse the power) at any point but ideally you don't need to.

'Fan shen' (reverse the body) is done with a force that can look like a 'fajin' but actually the effect is more like 'removing the opponent's power' and the jin is actually coming back to the dantian. It's called 'Fan' (reverse) because it is basically moving the spine in the complete opposite way that it normally moves when you 'fali', so you could actually 'fali' then immediately 'fan' and there is no real outside expression of the forces but the opponent would feel it.

'Fan shen' can also be combined with special breathing where you inhale on the strike and that's how the methods of 'zhan' and 'nian' (sticking and adhering) are done.

.

Thanks for the input from Yin style perspective, Glenn.

Fajin vs. no fajin in Bagua is an interesting topic of discussion. I have always wondered why "fali" seems to be so prevalent in Yin style practice. With your explanation it now starts to make sense.

I've read somewhere that Yin Fu's style changed significantly from the time of his youth until later years; his earlier students learned a large-frame style with clear "fali" and extended motions, while later students such as Gong Bao-Tien picked up a small-frame style more akin to Cheng's with more spiraling and hidden energy. What's your view on this?

[Bob]

We also have an interesting correlate with regard to power in bajiquan training.

This is metaphorically speaking so one can't take this literally:

When you train long enough in baji, the power will come and will find itself in all expressions of the practice. Then the power will disappear. A lot times the practitioner becomes discouraged and wants to quit but it is here you should begin to train harder. The power will come out a second time and find expression in the practice but it will also disappear once more. Again, the practitioner must double their efforts in training [like da qiang etc. etc.]. The power will then emerge for a third time and once it does, the power will remain with the practitioner for the remainder of their martial arts life. It is at this point that one can begin to refine the power and concentrate on intent and mind.

[oldtyger]

Bu Fajin is what my first teacher always emphasized in GBZ lineage. That does not mean there is no power, just that the power is not overtly expressed and obvious. My first teacher could easily knock me into a wall if he wanted to( he actually did the first time I met him), but the kind of power is continuous and smooth and coordinated with the stepping. He taught to do flowing movements that made his forms look like taijiquan compared to other people's bagua. He also emphasized the coiling and uncoiling mentioned above, so that after each action, the body was already wound up to act again. Many movements in the forms are choreographed to take advantage of this as a set-up for the jumping kicks which do not rely so much on leg power as they do on the body uncoiling.

As an aside, like Loriano Belluomini, I also felt the XPQ bagua seemed less attractive compared to what I had learned and compared to many other styles I had seen( such as Luo Dexiu's Gao style). I respect the art's power and practicality (Lion palm) but I found GBZ lineage more to my liking although perhaps it's less obvious in its applications. I admit I only learned a very small portion of Lion sweeping strikes. Perhaps if I had been exposed to another animal I might have liked it more.

Rich

[C.J.Wang]

I couldn't help but chuckled after I watched Loriano's Bagua clip and read in the article how he commented someone else's Yin style from Shanghai is "flowery."

[affa]

is he jinbao in beijing?

[D_Glenn]

On large frame vs. small frame, Xie said basically there is no difference, small is inside of large frame while large isn't neccesarily inside of small, the difference is in application like step once and strike or small might be step 3 times and strike, the other difference is in refinement and naturally the progression goes from large to small as one ages and only the small frame is really needed to maintain the skills you've already developed.

---

'Fajin' does have side-effects as it's not really good for the liver, which I believe is sometimes called 'taiji-sickness'. So an important rule is that you should do more standing than you do 'fali' practice with emphasis on pressing out while containing inward around the whole dantian area, emphasis on qihai point to stimulate the growth of visceral flesh around all the organs, if you can keep all the organs tight and compact then you can avoid side-effects from doing 'fali'. So schools or students somewhere down the line that don't have a lot of 'standing/ZZ' practice probably wouldn't have been able to keep the 'fali' practice.


Other styles have had 'fali' practices in everything but for whatever reasons stopped openly teaching it. Like Zhang Jun Feng's Gao bagua used to train it in striking drills and some other Gao styles still supposedly train it. We also see it some of the other Cheng styles and Wang Shujin's Cheng style via ZZD had the same 3 stages of practice that we do, even with drilling the strikes with 'fali' then progressing to the 'flowing/containing' stage. So the practice of training 'fajin/ fali' is inside many styles of bagua but only in private 'inside school' practice, while in actual application it is 'contained' and this actually builds upon itself with each 'change', which is a tangible feeling of power inside yourself as well as a building of momentum in the opponent, this can be released in the end if neccesary or just release the opponent's momentum. Bagua works in 3's, so maybe 1 out of 3 is a 'fa' but it's more like 1 out of 7: strike 3, re-assess situation, strike 3 again, #7 is a 'fa'.

Another reason why there are so many contradictory 'sayings' is because some are in regards to solo practice while others are for when one is fighting.


.

[oldtyger]

I couldn't help but chuckled after I watched Loriano's Bagua clip and read in the article how he commented someone else's Yin style from Shanghai is "flowery."

Well from my limited experience, I can tell you Xei Peiqi's lineage of Yin style bagua is far from flowery. Very direct, very simple, very effective.