The Centerline...

[Ian]

...is overrated.

-protect the centerline
-hide the centerline
-attack the centerline
-never cross the centerline
-move from the center
-capture the center

Ok clearly I'm shit-stirring a little bit, but there's a lot more to fighting than the centerline.

E.g. 'never cross the centerline' is just a guideline, not a result. If you don't ignore this guideline, you can never achieve results like this:



But if you respect guidelines more than you respect results (some people will not cross the centerline no matter what), you're essentially denying reality.

Your thoughts?

[Chris McKinley]

I think that's the correct perspective. There are plenty of other targets than just those on the centerline. Mindlessly obsessing over it is just dumb.

[everything]

that is such an awesome video. centerline may be overrated but center/dantien/hips (especially in bjj) probably can't be

[Bao]

You should you the centerline and, dan tian together, to organize structure and all of your physical movements. This is extremely important.

"-move from the center
-capture the center"

These are very important statements.

The centerline is not overrated, but maybe the importance of it is sometimes (ok, often) misunderstood. More than 90 % of all MA teachers are stupid anyway. One shouldn't listen to "rules" without understanding them.

[Teazer]

there's a lot going on in that video, but for sure they're not ignoring center-lines. It's just kept in the context of the situation and what they can get away with for positional advantages.

Great video btw,

[everything]

yes actually if we talk about movement instead of striking points, they call it "posture" in bjj, then they are not ignoring center lines. maybe if there is no striking things and it's just rolling or grappling, things are different though

if we look at arlovski vs. fedor, fedor mainly does looping power punches. arlovski was controlling the center line and winning the fight until his fatal mistake to go off plan. i think that fight shows one should control the centerline in standup striking but that, well, the best fighter is still the best fighter despite not following this guideline. fedor isn't really a good example because of that.

[yusuf]

Ian

it's really easy mate.. just ask a training partner to slow attack you with a knife.. then see how many times you cross the centerline...

yusuf

[Bhassler]

Centerline relative to what? To oneself? One's opponent? The room? Gravity? A particular line of force? The centerline is a fine and useful concept, but it would be my guess (strictly as an armchair martial artist) that the real function comes from being able to orient the (imaginary) centerline dynamically and appropriately under pressure. Failing that, hit 'em with a chi blast.

I 100% agree that as far as learning is concerned, rules can and should be broken often.

[johnwang]

I believe the centerline is defined as the line that draw from the center of your chest and extend that line into infinite. Since this line only exist in front of you and not behind you, 50% of the time your centerline will have intersection with your opponent's centerline. 50% of the time, there will be no intersection.

In a gun fight, you want to stand sideway, so your can use your arm to cover your heart area and expose the least amount of target space.

In a sword fight, if your sword is pointing at your opponent's chest (in the centerline path), your oponent will be very careful not to make any stupid move because the point of your sword is very close to his body.

In the striking art, If both you and your opponent has right side forward (uniform stance), since your right round house kick does not have enough distance, it won't make much damage. Your left leg round house kick has enough distance but you can only kick your opponent's back which is the strong part of his body. The moment that your opponent switch to his left side forward (you and his centerline has intersection), the moment that your left leg round house kick can kick his chest. If you step in your left leg 45 degree forward, your right side kick can also kick his chest. In boxing, if you keep moving toward your opponent's side door (your centerline and his centerline has no intersection), your opponent will never have chance to throw that powerful back hand hook punch. This is why it's always safer to move into your opponent's side door because you will not "expose your centerline" to your opponent.

In the throwing art, the mirror stance (you have right side forward and your opponent has left side forward) can give you much shorter distance to attack. You don't even need to step, you can attack your opponent's side door by using your back leg to hook his leading leg (since your right leg is already close to his left leg). You only need to step in your left leg and that will put you in your opponent's centerline (just like the side kick example). Also since your right arm and your opponent's left arm are so close, you can use under hook or over hook almost anytime you want to. The moment that you are in his center, any of your body contact throws (hip throw, leg block, leg lift, bowing throw, ...) will be able to apply there. also in the throwing art, you want to get into your opponent's center but you don't want your opponent to get into your center. That's how important the centerline theory is, and that's why the "comb the hair" was the 1st move of the old 24 SC forms (the purpose of comb hair is to get into your opponent's center).

In MMA there is a term that's called "dominate position". In CMA, if you are inside of your opponent's center (such as head lock, over hook, under hook, ...), you are in "dominate position".

[Wuyizidi]

It's probably much more important in weapons fighting than empty hand, because things happen much faster in weapons fighting. I've been doing that a lot recently. As soon as you gain the center line, it's pretty much over (the opponent's weapon is now on the outside).

Wuyizidi.

[chimerical tortoise]

Method A
Method B

Guidelines:
Method A deals with protecting from getting hit. Method B deals with conditioning to take hits properly.

Some people do A because they don't like the thought of getting hit by someone with a weapon or heavy hand. Some people do B because they would rather know how to get hit in the unavoidable case of getting hit. The person B could argue that A is an inflexible and formal model that is unprepared for problems because how can you redirect absolutely everything? Person A can argue too that you're not practicing the method efficiently enough to protect conclusively from getting hit, and that B is training a solution for a problem that could be proactively prevented.

Are you A or B? But instead of A and B bickering so much, why don't they just meet up and show each other what they mean instead?

[H2O]

In the Tai Chi I learned, the centerline is defined as a straight line splitting you in two, top to bottom. In defense, it is a critical flaw to allow you're own arm or leg cross your centerline. If you do cross yourself, you're set up to get launched into the wall. When attacking, the idea is to connect into his centerline through whatever part of his body you're teaching.

I believe the centerline is defined as the line that draw from the center of your chest and extend that line into infinite. Since this line only exist in front of you and not behind you, 50% of the time your centerline will have intersection with your opponent's centerline. 50% of the time, there will be no intersection.

This is true as well, and THAT centerline is the angle that you're own force follows. All 3 work together. I could even argue that the whole point of Tui Shou is to learn how to use those three centerlines together, and/or maintain the integrety of all three at all times

I've noticed that these ideas exist in every martial art I've studied. Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Shuai Chiao, Judo. Every successful technique I have ever learned requires that all 3 centers are lined up in that same pattern.

[shawnsegler]

I think the reason it's given such an important station in the martial arts canon is not that it's a powerful tactical concept on the opponent, but that it's an intrinsically easy and important reference point to be developed in your own body...not just tactically but in the whole greater scheme of whole body power and your ability to reference yourself (and your position relative to your opponent) in 3 dimensional space.

Once you develop that centerline awareness it's there to use or not use as you desire. Getting caught up in something like that as a principal or any principal like it was unbreakable is just self limiting.

My 2c.

[H2O]

I think the reason it's given such an important station in the martial arts canon is not that it's a powerful tactical concept on the opponent, but that it's an intrinsically easy and important reference point to be developed in your own body...not just tactically but in the whole greater scheme of whole body power and your ability to reference yourself (and your position relative to your opponent) in 3 dimensional space.

Once you develop that centerline awareness it's there to use or not use as you desire. Getting caught up in something like that as a principal or any principal like it was unbreakable is just self limiting.

My 2c.

Um, Yeah, Shawn. I'm gonna have to, go ahead and disagree with you there. There does come a point when the idea becomes ingrained into your body and you don't have to think about it, but I do feel it is one of the central principles in Tai Chi, at least what I learned. I feel the three centerlines are important enough to be considered requirements.

[shawnsegler]

I've been known to be wrong before. I know that different styles certainly place more emphasis on the concept than others...Wing Chun and Siilat Serak both hold the centerline concept as core principles.

So, sure disagree...I won't take your lunch money or nothing