The Centerline...

[H2O]

No prob, I can only talk about what I've trained. There's a lot of shit I've never even seen. For example, never seen a good bagua man.

I have a question for you, or anyone else. Can you think of a situation where you would cross your centerline? I'm not talking about a despereration situation. Is there anytime where you would actually advise someone to cross the three centerlines? Oh, and making the other guy cross is good. That doesn't count.

[shawnsegler]

For example, never seen a good bagua man.

You should really check out Luo sometime, dude. It would be a real eye opener for you.

Best,

S

[johnwang]

Here is an example that you use round house kick to set up a "centerline" side kick. The reason that you start with a round house kick because you want to switch sides (change from uniform stance into mirror stance) so you and your opponent's centerlines will have "intersection".

http://johnswang.com/Shanshou_6.wmv (at 0.08 - 0.10)

[H2O]

If I ever come across good Bagua, I definately want to train it. For now, I'm happy juggling a career, being a single daddy, and smashing people on their heads.

[shawnsegler]

being a single daddy

I know all about that shit. Satisfying, but lots of work.

[H2O]

It's kind of cool that this thread popped up when it did. I'm starting to teach my girl Tai Chi, and we're starting by going right into push hands. She'll understand the form better if she pushes for six months first. She kept crossing her center, and I kept pushing her out. I finally showed her what she was doing and she was able to not get pushed out like that again.

[shawnsegler]

Oh yeah and a good reason to cross your own centerline would be if you were trying to achieve a shoulder to shoulder position to control an arm with a weapon.

[H2O]

But even then, you want to start by turning your hip first, at least I do, so the body never crosses itself because the hip turns with the controlling arm. Now, you may cross for just a split second if you are changing the controlloing hand, but otherwise the principle holds. Unless you're doing something different of course.

[Teazer]

Can you think of a situation where you would cross your centerline? I'm not talking about a despereration situation. Is there anytime where you would actually advise someone to cross the three centerlines? Oh, and making the other guy cross is good. That doesn't count.

Difficult to rule out both desperation, since why take on more risk if you've got all the time in the world. Likewise if you're going to do it you might as well get the other guy crossed or at least facing somewhere else up at the end.

Here is an example that you use round house kick to set up a "centerline" side kick.

Even that one only worked out well because the opponent just stood there when he crossed the line. So the attacker took on some risk, for what they hoped was enough of a good outcome.

[Teazer]

In the Tai Chi I learned, the centerline is defined as a straight line splitting you in two, top to bottom. In defense, it is a critical flaw to allow you're own arm or leg cross your centerline. If you do cross yourself, you're set up to get launched into the wall. When attacking, the idea is to connect into his centerline through whatever part of his body you're teaching.

There's a couple of relevant concepts - the one that comes straight out from your front (or whatever part you're most happy pointing towards the opponent) and another that joins your central axis to theirs. I think not crossing the latter is usually the more important, but it also depends on what's doing the crossing. if your hand crosses but your force is going through the elbow its usually fine.

[Ian]

yes actually if we talk about movement instead of striking points, they call it "posture" in bjj, then they are not ignoring center lines. maybe if there is no striking things and it's just rolling or grappling, things are different though

To be clear: that clip was not about ignoring the centerline, it was about crossing the centerline. I read a taiji guideline somewhere that your hands should never cross your centerline, because that's somehow putting yourself at risk or whatever, but this clip proves the guideline to be erroneous numerous times.

Ian

it's really easy mate.. just ask a training partner to slow attack you with a knife.. then see how many times you cross the centerline...

yusuf

Right - that's one idea I had in mind. As has been mentioned numerous times in the knife threads, maintaining a perfect centerline in knife work is inadvisable.

It's probably much more important in weapons fighting than empty hand, because things happen much faster in weapons fighting. I've been doing that a lot recently. As soon as you gain the center line, it's pretty much over (the opponent's weapon is now on the outside).

Wuyizidi.

Care to elaborate? If your opponent's weapon is on the outside, it can still do plenty of damage so I don't really see how it's over.

The person B could argue that A is an inflexible and formal model that is unprepared for problems because how can you redirect absolutely everything? Person A can argue too that you're not practicing the method efficiently enough to protect conclusively from getting hit, and that B is training a solution for a problem that could be proactively prevented.

That's not exactly what I mean, and I'm not saying centerline theory is not important

Some people do A because they don't like the thought of getting hit by someone with a weapon or heavy hand. Some people do B because they would rather know how to get hit in the unavoidable case of getting hit.

Either way you should avoid getting hurt (that's the reason for martial arts). But can't you still get hurt even if your centerline is well-protected?

In the Tai Chi I learned, the centerline is defined as a straight line splitting you in two, top to bottom. In defense, it is a critical flaw to allow you're own arm or leg cross your centerline. If you do cross yourself, you're set up to get launched into the wall. When attacking, the idea is to connect into his centerline through whatever part of his body you're teaching.

Yet in the clip, Fedor is the one launching his partner into the ground over and over again. He couldn't do it without allowing his arms or legs to cross his centerline.

[H2O]

Fedor is never crossing center. He leads his throws with his hips, just like his should. If you lead with the hips, you cannot cross the centerline. Crossing center is a fault of leading with the hand.

Teazer, I think we are talking about the same thing. I agree with what you said.

[everything]

plus i think this is really a demo, despite the clip title. fedor also outweighs mousasi by, what, 40 lbs?

[C.J.Wang]

Ian,

How do you define "crossing the center line?"

[Ian]

Fedor is never crossing center.

-the throw at 2:08
-the rnc at 2:20
-the wrist grab from 2:30
-guard to mount at 2:48

etc

Are all impossible to do without crossing the centerline.

Ian,

How do you define "crossing the center line?"

How is it supposed to be defined, in your opinion?

I think the centerline = the saggital plane, only right in the middle of the body, dividing it in two:



And crossing it... well, pretty self-explanatory