24 Form (Yang Simplified/Beijing Form). Only place to start?

[Ron Panunto]

eh. just do the cloud hands and brush knee. maybe wild horse's mane. a long choreography is more of a mental training. it's really not particularly interesting.

IMHO the form that you practice should at least have one posture representative of each of the taiji 13 (8+5) jins and movements. If your not learning and practicing the "13" then your not doing taiji.

to me cloud hands has everything except push and press. push and press are easy to practice separately. just do cloud hands + push + press.

That's quite a stretch Everything. I guess you could conclude that all taiji jins are encompassed by the smallest movement of your little finger or the blink of an eyelash.

[Michael Dasargo]

Hello all,

We practice 2 Taiji forms: 24 Li Tian Ji Form and 92 Partner set (46 moves each person). The 24 is used to develop mechanics and proprioreception, and the 92 "dissappating hands" set is used to embody the buoyancy of taijiquan.

The 24, in my opinion, is more like a drill similar to 14 roads. It includes stepping and reptition and is managable (time wise) for those who want to practice for cathartic purposes.

When I look at various Taiji styles, it appears to me the constant is 13 energies, and the variant is the circumstance of the application.

Thus our training method focuses less on form, and more on principle application.

Hope it helps,
Mike

[johnwang]

It's a well balanced form with most postures being done on both sides,

What's the difference between a 24 moves form that's done on both sides (aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkll). vs. a true 24 moves form that's done only on one side (abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwx)? Will the students be able to just mirror that form and they can achieve the "done on both sides" result? Why should any form designer need to do this for their students? Will the 24 moves form that's only done on one side contains twice as much information as the other?

What's the value to write a book such as: "Once once upon upon a a time time, there there was was ..."

[H2O]

I think the only 'requirement' for Tai Chi is that you have some sort of movement that allows you to practice and refine your body mechanics. You can use the long form to do this, you can do a short form. You can do small groups of movements, like grasping sparrows tail. You can do single movements over and over a la Shuai Chiao or Xing Yi.

No matter what form you use, if you aren't training your body mechanics, you aren't training. If you are training you're body mechanics correctly, which form you use is really irrelevant.

I think there are a few people who are missing the forest for the trees. Remember that although the variations are infinite, the principle remains the same, and all that jazz.

[r.anderson]

I agree that "starting form" is simply where you started...Given the time involved to learn even the basic steps, I would encourage you not to discount your "interest" level. This could also be an intuitive sense that something is "off" with the teaching (not that it is bad, but that it just doesn't fit well with you). This is important.

Also, what helped me when I was grappling with maintaining interest and self-discipline with the solo-form was having it explained to me that this was not "simple choreography" but a type of shadow-boxing where you were actively visualizing an opponent or several opponents while moving through the jins. See if you can find an instructor that can effectively demonstrate how this may be so. For me, I made a game of envisioning applications while learning the postures and transitions.

I hope that this helps. Good luck.

[Jonny]

Hello.

I'm relatively new here, and to taiji, but I thought I would give my perspective on this.
I practice the short yang 24 form (combat focused)

It doesn't matter how many movements you do, the form is basically a way of transferring the concepts to you. Suffice it to say, the important things is not the order the movements go in but rather the internal concepts like yi (intention) and body alignment. 108, 24, and the rest of the forms. There are benefits and downfalls to both long and short forms, but I believe in the end these points are immaterial. What matters is the principals, concepts behind the movements; that's what takes precedence in practice.

Take care!
jonny

[Ron Panunto]

It's a well balanced form with most postures being done on both sides,

What's the difference between a 24 moves form that's done on both sides (aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkll). vs. a true 24 moves form that's done only on one side (abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwx)? Will the students be able to just mirror that form and they can achieve the "done on both sides" result? Why should any form designer need to do this for their students? Will the 24 moves form that's only done on one side contains twice as much information as the other?

What's the value to write a book such as: "Once once upon upon a a time time, there there was was ..."

Well that's an interesting question John and probably deserves a thread all of its own. The thing is that I don't believe that most students would make the effort to practice a one-sided form mirror image to get the benefits of doing the postures on the other side, whereas if it's built into the form, they have no choice. Your book analogy would only have value if we got different information from reading it with the right eye versus the left eye. Since most people are one-side dominant, there is a question as to the value of even practicing postures on both sides.

[johnwang]

I don't believe that most students would make the effort to practice a one-sided form mirror image to get the benefits of doing the postures on the other side, whereas if it's built into the form, they have no choice.

This problem can be solved by teacher leads students to do the origoinal form, then to do the mirror image form. The teacher can also just lead the left and right drills instead.

The 108 moves old Yang has about 50 different moves (about 58 moves are duplication). If CMC condensed it into 24 forms then more than 50% of the original moves will not be covered. If CMC also tried to balance both left and right side then that 24 moves form may contains only 12 moves and 3/4 of the original information will not be covered.

I attend a YMCA Karate class once in 1973 (I was homeless for 3 months in NYC and my body was very weak). The instructor lead his group to do sit up, push up, running around the room, ... I asked him if this was all I needed to do, I could do this at home and I didn't have to come to class. The instructor said, "Most people come to class to work out and they don't train at home." That was the day that i knew the difference between "work out" and "learning". I have always believed that we "learn" in school and "train - do homework" at home.

In a Judo forum, someone asks, "How should I train at home?" It seems like "training at home" is a new idea that will need some further discuss.

In theory, if students don't bother to train at home, they don't deserve your teaching. In reality, if students pay their tuition on time, you can't care less whether they train at home or not.

[Jonny]

I think a teacher will be able to tell who trains diligently at home and who doesn't. But again, a thread for another day.

[Ralteria]

The 108 moves old Yang has about 50 different moves (about 58 moves are duplication). If CMC condensed it into 24 forms then more than 50% of the original moves will not be covered. If CMC also tried to balance both left and right side then that 24 moves form may contains only 12 moves and 3/4 of the original information will not be covered.

Not to mention that application can change for a posture depending on the posture preceding it. Posture A transitioning to posture B can produce a unique application in the transition while posture C to posture B can produce an completely different application. So while "serving suggestion" applications for those reduced quantity moves stay the same a large number of the smaller and not so completely obvious applications are tossed to the wayside. The way Taiji is taught, one is lucky if even the "serving suggestion" applications are taught, nowadays.

In theory, if students don't bother to train at home, they don't deserve your teaching. In reality, if students pay their tuition on time, you can't care less whether they train at home or not.

It's a double edged sword really. I've seen a few MA intructors completely flustered by this as the knowledge they want to give to students they aren't ready for/don't have the basics mechanics yet.

[paoquan]

I feel that the 24 movement form was put together by better men than us.
It was never intended as a fighting form, but only really as a method to help improve the health of practitioners.
It contains pretty much all you need to know to get a good idea of taijiquan from a beginners perspective, and also gives beginners a chance to feel like they have completed something rather than learning the frist part of a long form.

Just because it's relatively new, doesn't mean it isn't very good.

Only my opinion, and I'm just a newbie!!!

[Jonny]

It was never intended as a fighting form, but only really as a method to help improve the health of practitioners.

I disagree here. It's all about your goals, and how you train it.

[Dmitri]

You're both right... It was never INTENDED as a "fighting form" (whatever that means in TJQ anyway), but there's nothing about it IMHO that makes it fundamentally different in that respect from all the other forms; it IS indeed all about your goals and how you train it.

[paoquan]

It was never intended as a fighting form, but only really as a method to help improve the health of practitioners.

I disagree here. It's all about your goals, and how you train it.

Yes, and the goals of the group of masters that put together the 24 movement form was to improve the health of the nation, not to create a fighting force.
Hence all the fa jing, all the jumps, all the fast movements were removed.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

The beijing 24 is probably the best starting routine for a newb. It's well thought out and is a great introduction to taiji.

It makes the transition to the Yang short form easy and that in turn falls into the long form nicely which is of course, mostly repetition and direction changes.

Once you get into Taiji, you probably won't care much for the 24, but it is a good starting point.