Why are there secrets?

[TrainingDummy]

Why are there still secrets in internal martial arts?

I'd like to keep this thread positive, since the stupid reasons for keeping secrets have been covered in other threads. For the record I've been initiated into a tantric meditation school, and I have to keep certain techniques secret for some of the following reasons.

1. If you tell students the secrets too early, they can build up a mental construction of what the technique is and never experience the what the technique is supposed to be about. For example telling someone the answer to a Zen koan is unlikely to help them achieve anything, whereas pondering upon a verse for years can lead to great realizations.

2. There is a hazing period where people are given practices of a gradually increasing intensity, to observe whether a person could have a psychotic episode if they were exposed to the "advanced" practices.

3. Respect for ritual, a sense of mystery and awe can be cultivated around certain rituals which is useful in certain practices. If you're too casual about the ritual, it can loose it's specialness.

4. Respect for the teacher, who told you to keep your mouth shut about the technique.

Now how do these things work in a martial context?

Thanks,
TrainingDummy

[cerebus]

Some instructors may withhold "secrets", but mostly what people perceive as "secrets" are just aspects of training which the instructor does not yet think they are ready for. The foundation must be solid before certain concepts, training methods, and other things will even be of any use to the practitioner.

But those who do withhold so-called "secrets" often do so either out of insecurity or because they believe the "secrets" to be too precious to share with anyone who has not proven themselves to be worthy of them. I suppose there may be other reasons, but those are the two that seem most prevalent in my own experience...

[shawnsegler]

there are secrets because there is money

[cerebus]

there are secrets because there is money

Ah yes, then there's money...

[Frazetta]

Are you saying that money is bad or that wanting money is greedy? Because...

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will save that malfunctioning corporation called the USA.

[cerebus]

Heh, heh. I've nothing against money. Only against using the promise of "secrets" to make the money. I believe that if a student is paying their dues and doing the work, and has shown themselves to be a decent person who won't abuse what they've learned, they should be taught everything which the teacher can teach them.

[fuga]

Awesome, Frazetta.

[TrainingDummy]

I actually wanted to steer away from the greed angle or student abuse angle, because it's already been done before.

I'm really interested to know, why in the Information Age, that some teachers refuse to pass everything they know, and furthermore risk that their knowledge will die with them.

Particularly, since many of these "secrets" could be printed on the front page of the NY Times and still only a tiny percentage of people would put in the time to make them work.

Perhaps it's a personal bug of mine, since I've done some computer programming, and tend to come from an Open Source and Free Software model, which promotes a freedom of information.

[TrainingDummy]

Heh, heh. I've nothing against money. Only against using the promise of "secrets" to make the money. I believe that if a student is paying their dues and doing the work, and has shown themselves to be a decent person who won't abuse what they've learned, they should be taught everything which the teacher can teach them.

Hi cerebus,

What would constitute "abuse [of] what they've learned", in your opinion?

Thanks,
Dummy

[Muad'dib]

There are no secrets. There are simply details that people will either:

A) Never get, because they don't pay attention, and have no clue that a minor detail can make a big difference.

or

B) Will never understand, because they don't practice the basics to development an understanding of why those details make a difference, as well as be able to develop the strength/power/required flexibilty, etc. to use the details correctly.

then there are the people who are practice and detail oriented, with the intelligence to parse out the details on their own. These people are frequently described as prodigies, but in truth they are not. They are simply not lazy.

[somatai]

"the secrets protect themselves by lying in the open"

there is stuff that makes no sense to tell someone unless they will be able to hear it

[Ron Panunto]

So what are these secrets? What makes you think that there are any?

[everything]

So what are these secrets? What makes you think that there are any?

agree with ron. there aren't any.

[Chris McKinley]

Frankly, TrainingDummy, some of the reasons you listed do qualify as "stupid reasons for keeping secrets". With certain practices, progressing cautiously is simply practical. With most others, it's simply a way of stringing the student along. The best way to hide something is to place it in the middle of a crowded room with a sign reading, "Free skill...just add hard work".

[DeusTrismegistus]

I figured something out once that my teacher can do and the next class I said, "I figured out on of your secrets" His reply, "I don't have any secrets but ok, what do you THINK you figured out."

Somethings things that are percieved as secrets are simply things which require enough prior knowledge to be useful.

Also some things may not be easy to talk about with people who haven't had a similar experience. Things like that could be viewed as secrets when in reality its just a matter of shared knowledge.