Why are there secrets?

[cerebus]

A certain grandmaster I visited a couple of months ago told me that he has books that were handed down to him but doesn't have any students worthy of them. He told me that he was planning on burning the books before he dies and taking the knowlege with him. I think it's kind of fucked up but I'm not going to tell him so. He's still pretty scary.

Perhaps he was hinting that you "might" worthy to receive these books...

[Doc Stier]

In my experience secrets were there to keep the most important aspects of a system from stupid students who would go out and show them in public to show off in front of others.

Another good point, and also another excellent reason not to let the cat out of the bag too soon!

I always tell my students that what we just covered today is presented on a need to know basis. So, anyone who you don't see here today, doesn't need to know, OK?

Most students immediately understand that if they have loose lips or demonstrate certain things to outsiders, they're only sinking their own ship, because they will no longer be welcome at our training sessions. Period!

[Andy_S]

Secrets? There are secrets in this stuff?!? Quick tell me some...

IMHO, secrets are particularly predominant in CMA: It is a cultural thing. The Chinese have always been opaque, and you can see this cultural influence continues to exist in NEAsia, in both business - the lack of transparency in Japanese and Korean corporations - and politics - the workings of the Chinese communist party, and well, as for North Korea...

This issue has affected many, many areas of the culture. There were traditional teachers who, for years, would have their students practice the basics of calligraphy, but not actually teach them what the characters meant! Point being such students had beautiful form, but had no communicative writing function. In Korea in the 17th century, King Sejong invented a very simple script that could have made universal literacy a reality, but the aristocracy suppressed it, in order to maintain their hold on power via Chinese charaters (which the slaves and peasants did not have the resources to learn). Chinese chefs and Chinese medics have been (until relatively recently) very secretive about their recipes and medicines, respectively. Compare this to the West, where medical techniques are disseminated in books and schools, and where chefs actively produce cook books detailing their finest recipes.

There is much to be admired in traditinal Chinese culture (and by extension, Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese) but this business of withholding information is not part of it, IMHO.

I suspect this is a significant part of the degradation of CMA as a fighting art in recent years. Other cultures - such as Thailand and Brazil - do not have this "personal knowledge is power" hangup, and look at the way their MA has been disseminated.

As for teachers believing that there are no longer any students who are "worthy" to receieve what they have received:
This is shear arrogance, elitism and dogmatism.
If they consider current generations beneath them, they might profitably consider that times changes; lifestyles and teaching methods must too. Maybe they should examine their pedagological methodologies to find out their lack of decent students. IMHO, a lack of flexibility in being unable to make arts teachable or relevent to the 21st century indicates a problem with either the art or the teacher. In such cases, the death of both is not necessarily a great loss.

The Hong Kong segment of the 'Way of the Warrior' docco had a Hung Ga master lamentnig the laziness and old-fashioned teaching methods of the then-current crop of CMA instructors, who, he said, were driving modern Hong Kongers toward the more modern-minded and diligent Korean and Japanese MA teachers.

[XiaoXiong]

I think what some people who don't know "secrets" sometimes think is that the secret is held because of a lack of trust in them, but in fact it may be held for their longterm benefit. We train a lot of basic stuff for a long time. Walking the changes, and finding the meaning of the training is not something to just gloss over and go beyond before it has taken shape in the body of the practitioner. When we get to advanced shen fa stuff in rou shen and san shou training, it makes all the stuff that came before so much more illuminated with meaning and possibility. Exposing the general public or even students who are still building a foundation in basics too soon to advanced material like that is a recipe for building a practice that may certainly have some holes in it's outcome. Especially if the student happens to leave the class. It is not a smart way to insure quality. If you want high quality you have to build the practice in a way that makes sense like you would any kind of advanced study of the self. You want people to work on things that are within their grasp first and get good confidence in the method as the foundational training takes shape, then they can build from there.
J

[oldtyger]

Some interesting thoughts here. Traditional martial arts always seem to have a history of secret teachings, whether these are meant merely for more advanced and loyal students to a school/style or truly reserved for the official lineageholders. My own teachers have often been quite willing to show their advanced teachings, knowing full well that I could not really grasp them without developing solid basics first. in bagua I feel that one must develop the bagua body and have a good idea and skill in circle walking to advance in this art. You literally can not do some techniques without this. In the taijiquan I am studying I feel one needs to understand the basic concepts of soft (rou) and hard (gang), peng, rooting, dantien rotation in 5 planes, the 8 strategic directions( my term for something my teacher has taught) and qi movement before one can begin to really use yi. My teacher taught many of us how to use yi but when I pushed with some, it was easy to neutralize because they couldn't really do it since they did not understand the basics. The pressure point striking in my lineage of bagua is reserved for advanced students due to some reasons already discussed re: possible misuse, whether intentional or accidental due to lack of control. Many of the methods my taijiquan teacher teaches would be considered truly secret knowledge because he himself is only one of a few that were given this knowledge--and he has developed his own methods beyond what he was taught as well. It has not stopped him from teaching it and oftentimes it still befuddles me--which means I need to practice more I guess.

Rich

[edededed]

The thing about secrets is that it is not even enough to be "in the lineage" to get all of them. In fact, chances are that there is just one person who gets these secrets - or none, as is often the case. Often, people do hear about these secrets and know what they are called (at least), but do not get to learn more than that!

It sucks, but that is reality...

[Doc Stier]

The thing about secrets is that it is not even enough to be "in the lineage" to get all of them. In fact, chances are that there is just one person who gets these secrets - or none, as is often the case. Often, people do hear about these secrets and know what they are called (at least), but do not get to learn more than that!

It sucks, but that is reality...

So you say.

That certainly hasn't been my experience, but whatever....!

[edededed]

Sorry, I meant to say - "it is often not enough to be in the lineage"... Obviously, your mileage will vary, and if so, all the more power to ya!

At the least, there is quite a lot of core xingyiquan material (for example) that is not out in the public - as I am sure you would know as well...

[Wanderingdragon]

Ugh! secrets ... no secrets , just low level

[Chris McKinley]

Getting too caught up in "secrets" is to lose the plot. Can you fight well under real pressure? Can you do so consistently? If so, you're already ahead of most guys with "secrets". Does knowing a given secret have a direct affect on improving your odds of getting home safe? If so, great...work the hell out of it like you would any other basic level material. If not, don't get your panties in a bunch about it and leave the obsessing to the lineage queens.

[johnwang]

Will you say that "How to counter a certain move" could have some secret in it? If you are a TKD guy and some Judo guy applies a leg lifting throw (Uchi Mata) on you, do you know how to counter that move? Do you need to obtain that information somewhere? Your TKD teacher may not be able to show you that, so where will you get that information before the internet was available?

Some Judo guys in Taiwan didn't know how to counter "circle running" in SC tournaments, so they used their own right hand to hold on their own right lapel, this way their opponent won't be able to use their right hand to grab on their right lapel (not enough room left there) and ran toward their right side and behind. It may sound like a joke but it did happened in the past. If this is the best counter that you can figure out by yourself, the effective counters must have some "secret" value in it. You may be able to figure the most effective counters out all by yourself someday, but how long will it take you?

[Wanderingdragon]

This is the big secret 18th century , 21st centure, Midievel times,...ssshhh don't tell anyone....Training and fighting

[BruceP]

There is nothing new under the sun

Every 'secret' is available to anyone who doesn't limit their learning to a pinhole's view.

[klonk]

Anything I do not know is a secret; by this definition, a great many things are secrets to me, and not only in martial arts!

Question is, how badly do you want to find out about something? Note this, if you know there is some particular skill and you don't have it, it is at least not a secret that the skill exists. What some people seem to be really complaining about, when the subject of martial arts secrets comes up, is the traditional path to finding them out.

There are, though, some purported secret skills that I think not to exist. Am I right or stupid? Ah, that is a mystery of the Orient!

[johnwang]

Anything I do not know is a secret; by this definition, a great many things are secrets to me, and not only in martial arts!

That's the best definition. After you know the answer, secret won't worth shit. CMA to somone who is interest in it, it's a treasure. For someone who can't care less about it, it worths nothing.

One day I served my teacher's "secret" herb wine to my guest (only the herb cost me more than $200), I found out that they prefered the local beer instead. It didn't hurt my feeling at all. As my teacher always loved to say, "he is not one of us". That mean if someone doesn't train MA, you should not expect that person behaves like us.