Why are there secrets?

[Interloper]

Several good points have already been made (particularly about teachers who provide the material but whose students can't or won'tperceive it or train it to learn it), but I'll add that there have always been those who have NOTHING but pretend (or are deluded into believing) that they have something... and that this ineffable "something" can only be achieved by decades of practice, doing lots of forms, and drinking the special tea. These individuals tell their students that if they do this, enlightenment will dawn on them like the dawn breaking over the mighty ocean.

Then there are some who are just control freaks and jealously guard what they have, and want to appear godlike to their students who can never do what their Master can do. I've met some of those.

There are also those who have "something" but only give it to an elite one or few who will be expected to carry it on (and in turn be very chary about handing it out). The rest of the students, no matter how sincere and hard-working, will be given bullshit but told to keep practicing and someday they'll be as good as the Master and the Elite One/Few. They're the worst.

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "The rest of the students, no matter how sincere and hard-working, will be given bullshit but told to keep practicing and someday they'll be as good as the Master and the Elite One/Few. They're the worst." Or, you could simply leave them all in the dust and become as good as you personally want to be. If I had a nickel for every so called "secret master" whose face I could rub in the dirt without really trying, I'd be lying on the beach of my private island drinking Mai Tai's.

[r.anderson]

To make a case in support of TrainingDummy's appreciation for open-sourcing, look what has happened to Tai Chi...

Sure, training took longer and was/is tied to Taoist metaphysics guaranteeing that it's "secrets" never would spread too far. But also masters fell into the tradition of keeping most of their students ignorant of many applications or intentionally obfuscating applications only to be passed down to their lineage pupils. Well all it takes is a few political upheavals and many of the masters failed to pass on the "true" form to anybody and entire forms have been crippled or lost.

Today many believe that Tai Chi is simply an exercise...including so-called masters and grand-masters in the West, as well as in China.

So what is the alternative? I agree that there is a need to show some reverence for both master and student by meting out instruction. This has certainly been the rule in family-styles where money was no issue. Like so many things we must strike a balance between asking too much and too little. Personally, I find little defense for intentionally putting in misleading or unnecessary information/steps into a form to "create" the next-level of advancement. Poor form could get a student injured or killed. But patent dishonesty is something else entirely.

[TrainingDummy]

btw, the use of the koan as an example is rather poor, if for no other reason that there are no "answers" to koan.

http://clublet.com/why?TheSoundOfOneHandClapping

I disagree, there are plenty of answers around to Zen koans, just ask Google. My point is that an intellectual understanding of a technique is not the technique. I'm fully aware that it's the meditation upon the koan that is the technique, not the riddle itself.

Note that I'm talking about meditation context, not a martial one.

[edededed]

Well, an example, then - Sun Lutang's famous demonstration of standing with his side against a wall and raising one leg without falling over (detailed in Sun Lutang's Study of Xingyiquan (English translation)). True, knowing how to do this won't make you invincible, but...

[TrainingDummy]

Frankly, TrainingDummy, some of the reasons you listed do qualify as "stupid reasons for keeping secrets". With certain practices, progressing cautiously is simply practical. With most others, it's simply a way of stringing the student along.

Hi Chris,

Can you elaborate on which of my reasons, in a meditation context, qualify as stupid reasons.

Thanks,
Dummy

[TrainingDummy]

I agree with others here in believing that there really are no secrets, per se. In many traditional styles, however, there is detailed information and training practices which are considered proprietary material, and thus not for general public dissemination. Oftentimes, such guarded materials are in fact a part of other styles as well, although practitioners of each style may not be aware of the common ground until they encounter the same material while learning another style.

In other instances, specific form sets, solo and partner drills, chi-kung and meditation practices, techniques for specialized fighting applications, and so forth, seem to exist only in one particular style, and are usually reserved for advanced level students who are earmarked to perpetuate all of the style's various methods as teachers to the next generation of students within the official lineage of the style. This is traditionally how each generation of acknowledged master instructors prevents having their knowledge die with them.

So, in one sense, I guess you could label such material as 'secret', but only from the perspective of outsider's looking in, who are not privy to such material as a part of the style's 'inner circle' of practitioners.

Hello Doc Stier, thank you for contributing to this thread. Since you're part of the camp that feels that there is propriety knowledge within some styles, and that this knowledge should be kept to a small number of trusted students.

Please note that I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on this topic and not trying to denigrate your stance on it in any way.

As a teacher of a family style with propriety knowledge, how do you feel about the dearth of bad tai chi that exists in the world and that the majority of the world considers your combative art to be a health dance practiced by grandmothers and hippies?

I'm also wondering, if this propriety material is extremely difficult to explain through books or DVDs, like the subtleties of push hands or certain types of chi gung. Or is it, that there is fundamental information being withheld until the student has proven their worth?

Thanks,
Dummy

[Chris McKinley]

TrainingDummy,

RE: "Can you elaborate on which of my reasons, in a meditation context, qualify as stupid reasons.". In a meditation context? No. But then you specifically asked, "Now how do these things work in a martial context?". I won't address anything in regard to meditation practices, however, in regard to combat training, I'll explain what I meant. Keep in mind my criticisms are of some of the reasonings you provided, and then only in a martial context; they are not criticisms of you personally.

"1. If you tell students the secrets too early, they can build up a mental construction of what the technique is and never experience the what the technique is supposed to be about. For example telling someone the answer to a Zen koan is unlikely to help them achieve anything, whereas pondering upon a verse for years can lead to great realizations.". That might be valid for certain tantric practices, but it's not for combat. Fans of the don't tell 'em anything school of thought invariably employ simplistic, polarized and flawed logic by implying that one is either making the student reinvent the wheel from scratch with every generation (which they advocate) or he is spoon-feeding them pablum and not allowing them to think for themselves.

The best teachers lead the student to the information, allow them to begin their journey of internalizing it for themselves, then coach them with tips and guidance of what has worked for them and others who are a little further along the same path. IOW, something in the middle between those two extremes.

"3. Respect for ritual, a sense of mystery and awe can be cultivated around certain rituals which is useful in certain practices. If you're too casual about the ritual, it can loose it's specialness.". "Specialness" is the domain of subjective enjoyment of the practitioner. It's not in any way essential to the practice, per se. In fact, with regard to combat, ritual in and of itself can be an obstruction in the long term, in that mindless codification can prevent further adaptation and improvement.

"4. Respect for the teacher, who told you to keep your mouth shut about the technique.". Respecting a teacher's wishes is a highly personal matter, but it should never be obligatory. Ultimately, the decision to talk about a particular aspect of one's combat training is up to each individual. Some of this decision has been rendered relatively less important in the modern era in that no secret will impart any special combat ability unless and until that skill is learned, practiced and rendered robust under pressure, as well as the fact that modern weapons render most martial arts "secrets" only marginally relevant to realistic modern combat scenarios.

Now, none of what I've mentioned here may have any relevance at all to you if you are only considering those teachings which occur with regard to meditation practices. However, since you did ask how these things work in a martial context, perhaps that will be food for thought, assuming of course that you aren't already completely aware of everything I mentioned.

[johnwang]

Let me share a "secret" here. This secret was told by a very respected person 葉曼 Ye Man in her 95 years old (it will be hard for me to believe what she said was not true). http://www.wxsy.org/ I hope someone will spend 10 years effort into it to prove whether this is possible or not.

You stand on top of a well and punch into that well. When the water 20 feet below jump out of that well and make your shoes wet, your training is completed.

[Doc Stier]

I agree with others here in believing that there really are no secrets, per se. In many traditional styles, however, there is detailed information and training practices which are considered proprietary material, and thus not for general public dissemination. Oftentimes, such guarded materials are in fact a part of other styles as well, although practitioners of each style may not be aware of the common ground until they encounter the same material while learning another style.

In other instances, specific form sets, solo and partner drills, chi-kung and meditation practices, techniques for specialized fighting applications, and so forth, seem to exist only in one particular style, and are usually reserved for advanced level students who are earmarked to perpetuate all of the style's various methods as teachers to the next generation of students within the official lineage of the style. This is traditionally how each generation of acknowledged master instructors prevents having their knowledge die with them.

So, in one sense, I guess you could label such material as 'secret', but only from the perspective of outsider's looking in, who are not privy to such material as a part of the style's 'inner circle' of practitioners.

Hello Doc Stier, thank you for contributing to this thread. Since you're part of the camp that feels that there is propriety knowledge within some styles, and that this knowledge should be kept to a small number of trusted students.

Please note that I'm genuinely interested in your opinion on this topic and not trying to denigrate your stance on it in any way.

As a teacher of a family style with propriety knowledge, how do you feel about the dearth of bad tai chi that exists in the world and that the majority of the world considers your combative art to be a health dance practiced by grandmothers and hippies?

I'm also wondering, if this propriety material is extremely difficult to explain through books or DVDs, like the subtleties of push hands or certain types of chi gung. Or is it, that there is fundamental information being withheld until the student has proven their worth?

Thanks,
Dummy

Thanks for the feedback. I will address your questions strictly from my own personal point of view, with the understanding that others may hold different opinions on these subjects.

Firstly, "the dearth of bad tai chi that exists in the world", or the fact that a majority of people may consider all varieties of Tai-Chi Chuan to be anything but a combat art is not my problem, and doesn't impact my personal practice, my professional teaching, or the value that I personally derive from my Tai-Chi Chuan training in any way. If anything, such views help me by way of allowing me to clearly present a very visible exception to the overly soft, limp noodle variety of Tai-Chi Chuan usually seen elsewhere.

The combative martial aspect of the art essentially becomes a specialized niche for me, and one that has very few local competitors. The hippie tai-chi teachers are actually helping me. They seem to be quite limited in what they can teach, so serious students grow weary and frustrated rather quickly, and often begin to look elsewhere for more in depth instruction with more challenging training. I offer a full meal deal as an intelligent alternative.

Secondly, the external aspects of some proprietary material, such as rare form sets or chi-kung sets, could certainly be presented for public consumption through video tapes, DVD's, and book publishing, but I feel that these resources are of greater value as reference materials for those who already know the material they contain.

Since the external aspects comprise such a small percentage of the overall core of the material, video presentations and printed descriptions of movement in a book, even with ample photographic examples, never really get the job done properly or adequately, IMO. There simply isn't any good substitute for solid instruction from a competent teacher.

A good teacher can not only guide and direct a student, but can also offer the student invaluable opportunities to experience what things should feel like when performed or applied correctly. These experiential interactions usually shorten the amount of time required to duplicate the teacher's skills for most students. The video tapes, DVD's, and books, however well done, can never communicate such qualitative physical information, nor can they adequately convey the specifically mental aspects of the arts.

I think that videos and books can be a helpful resource for those who already know the material they contain, but they don't really make it for self-instruction. The intricate subtleties of authentic internal practices have to be learned through experience and feeling, not through intellectual analysis and deductive reasoning. So in great part, the 'secrets' are not always rare quantitative physical practices, but rare qualitative guidelines and details instead.

[Haoran]

Johnwang,

I know an American woman who told me in her youth she could use her palm to cause water to 'bounce' using her palm above the water. The story you tell would put more emphasis on qi development though which may cause havoc in the IMA world.

[Chris McKinley]

It's f*cking magic!!! I'm foolin' you and you don't like it! God save the f*cking queen!

[Andy_S]

John:

If someone preferred Taiwan beer to your teacher's secret herb wine then,
(1) That wine must have been truly awful; or
(2) That person has truly appalling taste.

In fact, I will pass judgment right here, right now:
Anyone who actually LIKES NT beer deserves to be pierced to death by the demonic spirit of GM Chang and his poison toothpick.

[Waterway]

I once heard a Chinese Fable, it may not add much to the entirely sensible points that have been made here, but heck, I like a good yarn and it may offer a glimpse into the older mentaility that use to exist.

"Many many years ago, the Tiger was the most feeble animal that walked the land. All the other animals would taunt the Tiger and harass it, and the Tiger could do nothing about it.

One day, the Tiger noticed the Cat fending off a large bird. It was much bigger than the Cat, but the Cat was able to overcome the bird. The bird fled having been defeated by the Cat.

The Tiger knew he and the Cat were from the same family. He approached the Cat and explained his plight, and the Cat could see how frail the tiger was. The Cat also knew he was from the same Family as the Tiger, so he agreed to help the Tiger.

The Cat began to train the Tiger, and showed the Tiger how to move and how to fight. After a time, the Tiger grew in strength, until the Tiger became the most powerful animal in the land. It defeated all the other animals, and became king of the land.

Though the other animals feared and respected the Tiger, they said that it was only because of the Cat that the Tiger was mighty. Angered by this, the Tiger went to meet and defeat the Cat.

The Cat knew why the Tiger came, and as the Tiger ran to attack the Cat, the Cat ran up a tree. The Tiger was furious, for he did not know how to follow the Cat, he could not climb up the tree. It was the one thing the Cat had not shown the Tiger."

Morale of the tale is for you to decide, and whether or not that story had much usage in Old China is hard to say, but it always made me wonder about the mentality of certain teachers, and why they may feel the need to keep things secret or hidden.

[C.J.Wang]

In CMA, especially hard southern styles, special herb formulas are necessary for the training to ensure good health, and are used both internally and externally.