Tension <> Relaxation (a mostly Yiquan perspective)

[EightExtremesBoxer]

While I say this is mostly an Yiquan perspective, other opinions are welcome, but I just wanted to attract the attention of Yiquan folks.

I'm quite the newbie to Yiquan's specific methods, but I've been training them diligently for a bit now. Doing the exercises (mostly zhang zhuang which is my primary focus at the moment, but the same issue comes up in shili), it seems I constantly run into the uneasy polarity of tension and relaxation. The challenge seems to be.. where to fall in that equation?

As you use the mind through visualizations, the body tenses up. There are varying degrees of tension depending on the vigor of the visualization and there is a difference in "breadth" of tension, ie. local vs. full body and the whole spectrum in between.

Now, on one hand, the Yiquan teaching says you only use the mind. It also stresses relaxation, relaxation, relaxation. On the other hand, tension is necessary for movement. The question that arises in my mind while training is that what amount of relaxation/tension is right, what is wrong, what is desirable, etc? Perhaps the exploration of the question itself is the point, but when doing exercises solo where are the checks and balances for development?

Where my Baji training interjects with this, it suggests a maximal amount of tension at the point of fali (yes, we use that term in Baji), but preceded and immediately followed by relaxation, which is exactly what we train in Baji exercises when focusing on fali.

[Sprint]

You are not far (geographically) from Timo Heikkila, so I'm wondering if you are learning from him or one of his students? The fact that you are emphasizing relaxation makes me think you've had some contact. If not, I strongly suggest you get in touch with him. The only real way to learn this kind of thing is through hands on training.

The checks and balances for development are comparing skills with someone else. Remember that the yiquan training methods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. So you practice the solo methods and then you push hands to see how well you have physically incorporated the principles. A skilled teacher will help you to see where your weaknesses are.

[EightExtremesBoxer]

While I appreciate you taking the time to answer, your answer was pretty much of the "ask your teacher"-type (as discussed in John's recent thread). That is of course obvious and also not very helpful, unfortunately.

My teaching lineage is listed in my profile, but I'm not learning from Timo Heikkilä (though I've met him briefly a few times in the past) or studying the Second Course.

The checks and balances for development are comparing skills with someone else. Remember that the yiquan training methods are a means to an end, not an end in themselves. So you practice the solo methods and then you push hands to see how well you have physically incorporated the principles. A skilled teacher will help you to see where your weaknesses are.

Mmm, yes. In pair practise I can see the checks and balances. My specific question was in the context to zhan zhuang. Unless you are specifically saying: when these questions arise, go to Push Hands and then come back. In that case, well, humm hmm.

I understand that as of late some Yiquan teachers have started to mix and match training methods more and sooner, whereas the impression is that previously you concentrated more on one thing at a time, ie. zhang zhuang > shili > mocabu, etc. I'm new to Yiquan's way of training, so I was expecting to spend more time simply working on this part of the practise (though admittedly, I'm not new to stance training in general) in isolation at first.

Interestingly, on a slightly different tangent, I've also noticed that I've continued "training" this tension-relaxation question in my sleep. I occasionally wake up to feelings of whole body tension/unification such as achieved in zhan zhuang, etc. All in all, that's been an odd thing to notice, but it's great to make good use of all that time spent lying on your back.

[everything]

I don't believe you should feel any tension at all, but maybe that is a taiji view. Why would you want to feel any tension? Are you saying whole body unification = whole body tension?

[jjy5016]

"My teaching lineage is listed in my profile, but I'm not learning from Timo Heikkilä (though I've met him briefly a few times in the past) or studying the Second Course."

Good for you.

Don't get caught up in the tension and relaxation mind-fuck. You'll just be worrying about things that shouldn't matter at the onset of training.

There is going to be a certain amount of tension when you stand upright in a posture. Without tension (in the joints and connective tissue) you wouldn't be able to hold any of your zhuangs. The trick is to use the least amount of muscular tension as possible. It doesn't come overnight though. In fact it takes quite a while to be able to hold a frame with power and keep the outer muscles relaxed. It is what taiji calls the steel wrapped in cotton.

Think of the muscles like a rubber band held at both ends. If you pull the ends in opposite directions there will be some tension created. If you work the pulling a little further after time the band will stretch farther and still retain it's strength and elasticity. But if you grab a small section of the band and try the same stretch it will snap. This is a kind of rough comparison to the way our line of yiquan works the frame and "stretches the tendons and shrinks the bones" to quote WXZ. The Yao lineage seems to use more visualization than physical effort than the Han lineage (my own) but if it works.....

The checks and balances I tell my students to look for in are

1. Where is the weight of the body centered?

2. Is there 6 directions of force in your zhuang (physical and mental)

3 Are your shoulders resting with the support of the spine and connection through the back (correct way)
or
Are they lifting up because you are using muscle instead of just rotating the arm bone (incorrect way)

4. Are your muscles tensing or are you just stretching and twisting the joints using that tension to hold a
your zhuang.


These are more than enough in my opinion for someone beginning zhan zhuang to check. Leave the rest to the instructor.

One other thing, don't practice fa li until your sifu tells you to. It might look nice, but you could lead yourself down the wrong path and hinder your growth later.

Good luck

John

[EightExtremesBoxer]

Thanks John for your reply! That's something to consider, even though some of the terminology is slightly different from the way I've been taught Yiquan in this lineage. For us, it's mostly just visualizations, as you say.

I'm not doing any Yiquan fali practice, as I've decided to approach the art itself rather humbly and through the basics. So, it's just zhan zhuang and occasional shili. Then again, I'm doing Baji-style practice which includes the style's own fali daily as well, but that's how it goes when you look at different arts at the same time.

I don't believe you should feel any tension at all, but maybe that is a taiji view. Why would you want to feel any tension? Are you saying whole body unification = whole body tension?

To be honest, I don't know exactly.

In the Yiquan exercises, (I feel) you are playing between the two opposite ends of relaxation and tension. As if you'd be going towards tension, but not quite arriving. Of course, in practicing it you occasionally notice "having arrived", ie. having too much tension and then letting go of it. There seems to that odd equilibrium point between the two: relaxed, but as if the on edge of tension, ie. "not-quite-tension."

Right now my zhan zhuang is see-sawing somewhere in and between of those extremes and middle points.

It is, like John said above, a mind-fuck. I've certainly run into the same topic before in various other CMAs, but nowhere has been so smack in the middle of my face and difficult to ignore as in Yiquan.

[Overlord]

While I say this is mostly an Yiquan perspective, other opinions are welcome, but I just wanted to attract the attention of Yiquan folks.

I'm quite the newbie to Yiquan's specific methods, but I've been training them diligently for a bit now. Doing the exercises (mostly zhang zhuang which is my primary focus at the moment, but the same issue comes up in shili), it seems I constantly run into the uneasy polarity of tension and relaxation. The challenge seems to be.. where to fall in that equation?

As you use the mind through visualizations, the body tenses up. There are varying degrees of tension depending on the vigor of the visualization and there is a difference in "breadth" of tension, ie. local vs. full body and the whole spectrum in between.

Now, on one hand, the Yiquan teaching says you only use the mind. It also stresses relaxation, relaxation, relaxation. On the other hand, tension is necessary for movement. The question that arises in my mind while training is that what amount of relaxation/tension is right, what is wrong, what is desirable, etc? Perhaps the exploration of the question itself is the point, but when doing exercises solo where are the checks and balances for development?

Where my Baji training interjects with this, it suggests a maximal amount of tension at the point of fali (yes, we use that term in Baji), but preceded and immediately followed by relaxation, which is exactly what we train in Baji exercises when focusing on fali.

I think i am bit too bold to say this: there is not much difference between baji and yiquan, their outcome and intention is the same. They are after all, just tool to cultivate your best potential. Physically and mentally.

Yiquan does not say you only use your mind. It provides a frame work for you start with, namely Zhangzhuan. Most people wont realize the benefits of zz until their early 30s, when their physical strength start to decline. Weakness of certain parts of body that you brutalized in youth start to surface and zz is the best remedies. And trainees start to find out the power he acquired before is without substance. (There is not qi or even yi)

What do i mean by no qi, if you accidentally hit a friend's hand in cold winter, and feel his hand is warm and your hand is cold and painful, then he has qi. And you dont. With long term zz, the force/qi is properly distributed evenly through out the body. There is no "stress point", bit like steel forged again and again.

Baji emphasis on explosiveness. So without neigong, or zz, you will have some injury when you get over 30s. The better your are, the worse it may get. Because of stress point...and because your mind focus on particular aspect. But baji in reality means everywhere, so the qi/force suppose to be even out. If you are good in this art when young, it does not necessary you are good when older, without zz.

To supplement this condition, Baji also incooperate piqua. Qi can diverge to the hands and not the feet, shoulder/shouder blade can relax and sooth up. But it is nowhere as good as simple zz.

Hope this help,
Over

[Bhassler]

For myself I emphasize skeletal transmission of force-- so you need alignment to stay upright and relaxation to allow the energy (weight, force, groundpath, vectors, whatever term you use) to pass through. I don't think about tension per se, I just try to disperse incoming energy evenly throughout the system in order to pass it through to the ground, and try to focus outgoing energy along a direct path from the ground into my target.

I suggest starting with relaxation and playing with intention and more or less "getting out of the way" of your body's natural responses. In my experience deliberate use of specific musculature is almost always counter-productive. This is my own particular approach, and I don't mean to imply it is better than any other, it's just what works for me presented in the language I use for myself. The important thing is to pay attention to what you're feeling and what gives you results-- your own experience has to be taken as the highest authority in determining what's correct for you. This means you must test and experiment in order to have valid results. Just some stuff to think on...

[DeusTrismegistus]

Well you can be too relaxed, when your bone alignments aren't maintained. So you want to relax as much as possible while maintaining proper alignments.

[everything]

I don't believe you should feel any tension at all, but maybe that is a taiji view. Why would you want to feel any tension? Are you saying whole body unification = whole body tension?

To be honest, I don't know exactly.

In the Yiquan exercises, (I feel) you are playing between the two opposite ends of relaxation and tension. As if you'd be going towards tension, but not quite arriving. Of course, in practicing it you occasionally notice "having arrived", ie. having too much tension and then letting go of it. There seems to that odd equilibrium point between the two: relaxed, but as if the on edge of tension, ie. "not-quite-tension."

I think I follow you, but I think it's ends of stillness and almost-movement. I think we mean the same thing. In my interpretation, the almost movement that you talk about in yiquan might also be called "sub threshold excitation", maybe a degree less than "not quite tension". If you are about to dive into a pool for a race you probably have this same sensation but you can't be tense or you'll slow your reaction speed. I don't think of the dive as tension though I think of it as explosive, with all your "almost movement" suddenly crossing the excitation threshold and firing all at once. You need as many nerves in sub threshold excitation then they need to go BAM. If you are doing zhan zhuang it seems similar but you are ready to move in ANY direction. It seems maybe you should be more relaxed.

[Josealb]

Overlord,

Interesting about the explosiveness of Baji needing to even out on the long run, with softer work. Would that exact same thing apply to other explosiveness oriented martial arts, like Xingyi?

I guess my real question would be, do you think that its necessary to use a softer method, a different one (pigua for example), rather than just softening up the original method (Baji)?

Thanks.

[Wanderingdragon]

I am by far no expert,but I will venture to say , although yiquan deemphasizes breath , in your visualizations during ZZ you must send your breath to the location of your intent as every movement begins in the breath , this is something you first recognize in your moving exercises . I attempt to stay away from qigong and qi in my termonology as these are taboo in yiquan albeit only to keep your focus on what is natural body mechanics rather than to get lost in the mystical qi debate. Just know that your center and your connection, your relaxation and your strength are all naturally tied into your breathing.

[Overlord]

Overlord,

Interesting about the explosiveness of Baji needing to even out on the long run, with softer work. Would that exact same thing apply to other explosiveness oriented martial arts, like Xingyi?

I guess my real question would be, do you think that its necessary to use a softer method, a different one (pigua for example), rather than just softening up the original method (Baji)?

Thanks.

Martial art is like cooking, you need combination of flavor to make it work.
If you make it too salty (or other taste)....taste awful in the long run and not healthy, even it taste sensational at the beginning.
I dont understand what you mean by softer method.
Pigua is pigua, there is no hard or soft pigua, but it depends how each artist interpret it, or utilize it.
Yiquan, for instance, you cant say it is a softer method, or hard method. But it is definitely a good method.

As for qi issue, either you get it, or you dont. It is just personal.
Too much of my understanding is not good for your kungfu, my apology.

Over

[Josealb]

Hehe...on the contrary. I understand cooking and enjoy it very much.

Thanks.

[Overlord]

Oh man...you pick on my weakness.
I dont know how to cook, I tried. Just dont have talent in it.
I envy you, dude.

Over