What Taiji techniques to train on a heavy bag?

[klonk]

He already did.

Now, so far as heavy bag and taijiquan techniques, do not miss Fairy Lady Works Shuttles. Do not let the name fool you.

[Jonny]

everyone had really good advice in this thread.

one particular technique i like to do is push the bag and when it swings back, catch it and let the power transfer into the floor.

jonny

[Jonny]

He already did.

Now, so far as heavy bag and taijiquan techniques, do not miss Fairy Lady Works Shuttles. Do not let the name fool you.

One of my favorites!

[Ben]

I've practiced my ward off/expanding on mine. It can be good to feel the connection with the weight.

[johnwang]

if the heavy bag is as appropriate in training for Tai Chi as in boxing, then what separates Tai Chi from boxing?...bag work (striking metal shavings, etc) is unnecessary and potentially counter productive in the development of your chi-pathways. ...Too much physical force trains your body to constrict its muscles during a strike which will effectively close off many of your chi pathways and weaken your offensive capabilities....Tai Chi is all about applying precise force backed with chi, ...It isn't muscle, it's chi.

Since nobody has responsed to r.anderson's comment, I'll give a shot.

- Will it be more valuable to integrat Taiji and boxing together than to separate both apart?
- What does the "chi pathways" has to do with one's combat ability?
- As far as, "It' isn't muscle, it's chi", that's just a bit too deep for me. We train chi inside and we train muscle, bone, and skin outside. How can we separate one from another?

[nianfong]

I, too, am calling bullshit. if you don't tense when you hit the bag, or a person, you WILL break your hand.

[Dmitri]

I would say that there's SOME truth to what r.anderson is saying, i.e. if you use a lot of force and hit the bag a lot as the "main course" in your training to develop strength, then you're not following TJQ's way of developing these things... The training progression is different. It will work of course, just won't be good TJQ, IMHO anyway.
If, however, you do it from time to time to either feel a movement "under pressure" (i.e. with some resistance) or to test a power release (but not as the main means of training it), then it's fine and can be of help, as others pointed out above.
Just my $0.0002...

[Doc Stier]

"It isn't muscle, it's chi."

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this comment.

Tai-Chi Chuan has both internal components and external components, just like any other fighting art. The manner in which these components are used greatly influences the potential effectiveness of the art. Ideally, the internal and the external will be trained to act as a blended power which should easily be more dynamic and more powerful than either component applied primarily by itself.

There is no reason, IMO, why Tai-Chi Chuan techniques can't be practiced on a heavy bag to train power issuing skills, so long as the body's structural alignment is correctly maintained and its natural physical movement dynamics are properly used. Simply stated, it you can't hit a heavy bag with good power, using any offensive technique from any form set, then you won't be able to hit a live opponent with sufficient power to stop him using that technique, either.

For an IMA style fighter, the power of the techniques should be generated from a combination or the relaxed momentum of your body weight and a fierce intention of your mind, directed together to the same target at the same time as a unified and synchronized power. The target could be a heavy bag, or it could be a man's body trunk. What's the difference?

It isn't just sheer muscle power, and it isn't just some vague energetic magical mystery tour. It is both muscle and mind working together in balanced proportion.

This is just my humble, but correct opinion!

[Wanderingdragon]

I, too, am calling bullshit. if you don't tense when you hit the bag, or a person, you WILL break your hand.

Sorry, no tension just proper structure, tension is what will break your hand or wrist or whereever there is a gap in your structure there will be a stress.

[klonk]

I have a heavy punching bag in my house. I hit it every day, unless I am sick or lazy. I have learned more from that dumb piece of apparatus than I ever got from some senseis, sifus and coaches of the manly arts. It never flinches, it can't. It never, ever, cooperates.

That is its value. It cannot blink or feel and so you never get the hopping accomplice syndrome so often complained about here.

You have objected to some observations offered; I would say, go hit the bag two or three times a week and see if you form a new appreciation of the thing.

[johnwang]

I have a heavy punching bag in my house. I hit it every day, unless I am sick or lazy. I have learned more from that dumb piece of apparatus than I ever got from some senseis, sifus and coaches of the manly arts.

When people move to a new town and can't find any CMA school to continue their training, I always suggest them to get a punching bag and work on it for the rest of their life. It's so funny that if you work on the heavy bag and wrestling daily, the words, body structure, body alignment, Sung, follow, sticky, Qi flow, ... will mean very little to you. In your mind there is only the right way and the wrong way. Everything start to become "common sense" after that.

[r.anderson]

Thank you everyone for the informed and lively exchange. This is part of why I have been so glad to have found this forum to discuss the internal martial arts, because debate within a single classroom/dojo can easily become circular and insulated.

For my case, my instructor is much more focused on the application of internal energy than anything else, and this has rubbed off in how I presented my question. If lack clarity is one of the reasons that my question was dismissed by some, please allow me to express myself better. Clearly bone and muscle play an important part of application; how can someone stand without bone and muscle? When I said that it isn't muscle, it's chi; I was referring to the distinction between Tai Chi and many other arts. I mentioned my instructor's response as it seemed to address this issue concerning the use of a heavy bag. His concern was not that a bag has no place in Tai Chi training; it was that if the focus is to develop just brute force then it misses the finer application of chi energy, which is a distinctive part of Tai Chi training. He said that one could use the bag effectively if chi was the focus and that body and form followed intention, but also suggested that a target such as a light shade (for the need of precision of form and intent) might give good results.

I understand that my knowledge on the subject is still developing, and again I appreciate the constructive feed back. I think that I shall be using the bag more based on this support.

Other arts use chi to varying degrees. I believe that there are other students and exponents of this art that will identify Tai Chi's particular focus and use of chi is both distinctive and is an essential ingredient to any of its martial effect. The throws and locks etc. all take nerves and muscles to perform, but for it to be Tai Chi (again to my limited experience): intention directs chi, which in turn affects your application of body but also had an effect all its own...I am very glad to have generated this discussion and will continue to reflect on your thoughtful comments. Thanks

[johnwang]

if the focus is to develop just brute force then it misses the finer application of chi energy,

- Brute force = use part of your body to generate power = wrong way to Fajin
- None brute force (you may call it Qi) = use your whole body and work as one unit (include body vibration - trunk lead limbs) to generate power = right way to Fajin.

Everybody want to do the right Fajin. Nobody wants to do the wrong Fajin. It has nothing to do with whether you train Taiji, XingYi, Bagua, Baji, long fist, prey mantis, SC, ... The heavy bag is just like a human body, if you can't send your Qi into that bag (or your opponent's body) to make that bag move (or hurt your opponent), your Qi has no combat value there.

Why do you want to

- Faiji in the thin air if you can Fajin into a solid object?
- perform a throwing form if you can throw a real person?
- play with yourself if you can play with your love one?

No matter how good your "masterbating skill" is, when you need to satisfy your love one, You will find out there are something missing.

- Fajin in the thin air = masterbate
- Fajin on the heavy bag = satisfy your love one

[DeusTrismegistus]

LOL that is awesome.

IME heavy bag training can be detrimental. That all depends on how its used though. If you just walk up and start throwing strikes as hard as you can then you may hurt yourself and you will not get much out of it and possible cause problems. If you approach the heavy bag as another training tool and use it appropriately to work on specific details of power generation and technique then you will get much more out of it. A perfect example is how to hold the wrist aligned properly. If you punch wrong you can break your wrist. Best way to find out of you are doing it right is to hit the heavy bag, it will let you know. I think one of the keys to getting a lot out of the heavy bag is to not focus on how hard you hit it or how much the bag moves but on the quality of the strike. This often means starting out easy and working your way up to develop a certain quality.

I have practiced brush knee, slanting fly, fair lady, and a few others on the bag. You can also use it to work peng by simply moving the bag with a partially extended arm and moving forward, then you can follow the bag and try to maintain distance from it and not let the weight of it swinging collapse your arm.

[klonk]

My remarks are not directed at anyone on this thread. I have, though, found over the years that there are some taiji people who will not hit a bag. They are afraid of developing coarse energy. How would they know this is a reasonable fear? They have never tried it. The matter is open to the question of whether they posses any useful amount of energy, coarse or refined. Again, how would they know if they do or not? Their practice consists of reserved push-hands and fajin in the air, and JW has already explained what air fajin is like. I would be more diplomatic and say air fajin bears exactly the resemblance to martial arts that air guitar bears to music.