"I can use my taiji for fighting"

[CaliG]

For any type of art to work (whether it's TJQ, XYQ or BGZ) you need to some type of live training where you use your tehcniques against resisting or non-cooperative attackers. I'm not talking about just sparring, but some type of training with a partner where you don't know what they are going to do next.

If you train TJQ in this way you'll find that the number of ways it has for dealing with these types of situations is endless. Yet while you're developing your combat taiji the rest of the taiji world will probably say, "That's not taiji."

I think the thing that people miss is that everyone is going to have their "own" style of using taiji for fighting. Because just as the moves have an endless number of variations the techniques can be put together in an infinite number of ways. For this people have to be taught the concepts and have to be encouraged to try different variations and figure out how to apply taiji on their own.

Yet at most schools in the West, what you see at a TJQ school is everyone trying to do everything exactly like the teacher and only doing what the teacher does. But to understand how to apply this stuff you have to experiment and work a lot of things out for yourself.

[C.J.Wang]

Tao,

Well honestly, in 25 years training, I've never heard that exercise described that way. I understand the classic it refers to, but I think its a bit of a reach on interpetation. But thats just me...., not saying its wrong though.

I've actually been lucky enough to train with Chen, Yang, Sun, and Temple style teachers, but none really explained that way. It was more a sensitivity of intent, not trapping or tricking. But all of those older teachers specifically said that it wasn't tricking. I see drawing in as a very small part of what Taiji should actually be. IMHO, but I'm old....

Thanks for the article though, a good read.

Chas

Actually, I have heard a lot about the tricks used in Taiji PH to uproot or make the partner stumble. It's about manipulating human being's nautral reflexes.

When the center of gravity is moved outside the base, our body naturally tries to regain balance by quickly moving the foot (or feet) to another spot in order to create a new solid base -- sometimes repetively; this is why people stumble when they are about to fall.

The Ti-Fang exercise as described is a very basic trick. You first push into the opponent and lure him into resisting by pushing back; when he does that, you withdraw slightly so he has nothing to push on, which makes him draw his own center of gravity forward and slightly outside his base. Once this happens, it'd be easy to push him back or drag him forward.

It's like expecting to lean on an invisible wall that's no longer there.

One trick my teacher likes to use to send opponent airborne with a palm strike is to first dig his fingers into the sensitive areas of the body to cause a flinch response before delivering a solid hit with the base of the palm. It might be a little crude for the Taiji folks.

[Ben]

One trick my teacher likes to use to send opponent airborne with a palm strike is to first dig his fingers into the sensitive areas of the body to cause a flinch response before delivering a solid hit with the base of the palm. It might be a little crude for the Taiji folks.

I seen a little of that before and I think its pretty darn cool!

[DeusTrismegistus]

I can't believe this reached six pages.

Well I have been really busy lately but I look forward to reading through the last 3 pages of responses when I get the chance.

Yet at most schools in the West, what you see at a TJQ school is everyone trying to do everything exactly like the teacher and only doing what the teacher does. But to understand how to apply this stuff you have to experiment and work a lot of things out for yourself.

I agree that you have to experiment and try things out for yourself but at the same time doing what your teacher wants you to do is usually very important. I don't want to say to do exactly what he does because he may do things that don't fot your body type or abilities well. Fopr example my teacher kicks high very well even though he does so very infrequently, I don't have the flexibility anymore to kick someone my height in the head without risking hurting myself. If you learn to do what your teacher wants you to it will usually open up doors to things you may have never seen before. The extent of what you see to be able to experiment on can become larger. Thats my experience anyways.

[nianfong]

One trick my teacher likes to use to send opponent airborne with a palm strike is to first dig his fingers into the sensitive areas of the body to cause a flinch response before delivering a solid hit with the base of the palm. It might be a little crude for the Taiji folks.

I don't think that's crude for taiji. remember, this is a style that has techniques called Needle at the Bottom of the Ocean (ocean refers to qi ocean, which is the groin), and Hammer POinting at the Groin.

[Aged Tiger]

One trick my teacher likes to use to send opponent airborne with a palm strike is to first dig his fingers into the sensitive areas of the body to cause a flinch response before delivering a solid hit with the base of the palm. It might be a little crude for the Taiji folks.

I don't think that's crude for taiji. remember, this is a style that has techniques called Needle at the Bottom of the Ocean (ocean refers to qi ocean, which is the groin), and Hammer POinting at the Groin.

"Snake Creeps Down" can be pretty nasty when you do it rear to front.... (Kind of a low Xingyi Snake)

C.J.,

I am speaking more on a "Cheeeee" level than physical, but that always opens the King Sized worm can.........
Besides, there enough actual sticking techniques in the form that you really don't need to trick anyone.

Chas

[ilove_thistuff]

I'v used it.....havent you?

[LaPointe]

if you train taiji, why wouldn't you be able to use it in a fight? that's what it's made for. i mean, i like to think that i do, but i probably don't. if i'm attacking, it usually looks a lot like hsing-i even though i know almost nothing about it. however, i trained wing chun for about 3 years and it's probably me mixing that with taiji. i've just never been taught how to use taiji as anything more than a method of responding to an attack, so i use what i know for lack of the proper method. it's pretty hard to say something does or does not belong to a particular style when you're in a "live" situation. it seems to me, you just do the old JKD thing and use whatever you've got/whatever works best.

granted, i have fought minimally and only once in a "street" situation. i keep myself out of fights and haven't sparred in ages, so, yeah, i guess i don't count.

[SquattingMonkey]

Hi guys, I've just read all your posts and I am a bit confused. Why are some of you under the impression that TCC when used in a fight must wait for the opponent to strike so you can redirect and counter. You could initiate the attack at anytime and as long as you are issuing with jing your doing TCC in my book. TCC has plenty of punches and strikes that you could make the first attack with. Who says you have to wait for them first? If your first attack is unsuccessful and they evade or dodge your attack and counter, THEN you can in turn use Yin energy to redirect and attack back. You shouldn't ever have to wait to attack, you can initiate an attack just like XYQ does, it's when their attacks come at you that you yield and neutralize. Well that's just my opinion, what do I know I'm still a noob.

[Ben]

Hi guys, I've just read all your posts and I am a bit confused. Why are some of you under the impression that TCC when used in a fight must wait for the opponent to strike so you can redirect and counter. You could initiate the attack at anytime and as long as you are issuing with jing your doing TCC in my book. TCC has plenty of punches and strikes that you could make the first attack with. Who says you have to wait for them first? If your first attack is unsuccessful and they evade or dodge your attack and counter, THEN you can in turn use Yin energy to redirect and attack back. You shouldn't ever have to wait to attack, you can initiate an attack just like XYQ does, it's when their attacks come at you that you yield and neutralize. Well that's just my opinion, what do I know I'm still a noob.

Welcome to the flowa!
I agree that you could strike first but most people are extremely impatient and you shouldn't have to. Also theres the legal issues of striking first. It makes more sense to wait, not because you have to but because it will be a better or you*.


*This post is not intended for ring fighting, only self defense situations.

[Mut]

legally you can strike first, at least here, as long as you can prove that you where under immediate threat of harm.... You have to prove that any reasonable person would also have felt under serious threat. For example you are at the bus stop, someone comes up to you and verbally (and physically) threatens you saying something along the lines of : "You look like a poof, i hate poofs, I'm going to kick the shit out of you" while also showing and aggressive set to the body (fists clenched, blocking exit and the like) Here you could argue with some merit that any other reasonable person would feel under threat of assault.

Even if you let them strike at you first there is no guarantee that witnesses may not see that strike but may only see your 'assault' on the other person.

Personally I tell people that if they feel seriously threatened better to act first and deal with the potential legal issues later.... better that than having to spend time recovering in hospital and rehab....

[maxashton]

Better be tried by twelve than carried by six.

[MAFAN]

How about "I know I can fight" and "I do taiji" equalling "I'm figuring out how this taiji stuff fits into the fight game"

If it's true at all, then that sounds more likely.

[Schu]

I built my chasis out of Hung Gar. (basic fighting skills/external)
I upgraded the engine and got a new paint job with Tai Chi. (advanced movement concepts/internal power)

So yes Tai Chi can be used for fighting.

If you argue it is my Hung Gar doing the fighting that is silly.

Science gave us the combustable engine and the ability to move around locally.
Rocket science gave us rockets and the ability to go into space.
Does the credit for flying to the moon go to the combustable engine? Of course not!!

Tai Chi is definitely for fighting but if you study rocket science before having a grasp on the basics you will take longer to get off the ground and if you attempt flight too soon (to fight as a novice Tai Chi practitioner) you will crash quite often making the local community think rocket science is stupid and a waste of time.

But they don't know or understand rocket science so who cares what they think!!

[Walk the Torque]

SOOOOOOO QFT

If you didn't think that way, you wold never get through the first three years.