Pulling Guard

[johnwang]

Do you think the Tomoe Nage, Tani Otoshi, Hikikomi Gaeshi, or Uki Otoshi is better than just pulling guard? You can do more than just pull your opponent on top of you. Why don't you just go that extra mile and get yourself a better "dominate position" at the same time? It will connect into your ground game much smoothly IMO.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... oenage.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... otoshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... gaeshi.htm

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animatio ... otoshi.htm

[H2O]

I use Tani Otoshi all the time. It works well with the way I fight. Uki Otoshi is basically Dragging. I use it on occasion, but most Judo guys are too slick for that one, they're ready for it. I don't use the other two.

If I do pull guard, my plan isn't to stay there. I'm either going to slap on a triangle or an armbar, or sweep them immediately to take top. The guard is a very dominant position in and of itself. I spend a good 75 % of my time on the ground playing guard.

[johnwang]

What happened to your dragon? I like H2O dragon much better than H2O.

[everything]

not to mention the first two are similar to sweeps in ground game so shouldn't seem too different

[grzegorz]

Believe it or not pulling guard actually has an interesting history behind it and changed judo forever.

Rules

The rules of a Kosen Judo match are a similar to a cross between a Judo and a modern Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu match. All Kosen matches started standing however unlike judo today the Judoka could drag his opponent down while falling straight onto his back (called "pulling guard" in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.) Once on the ground, chokes or joint locks to the arms and legs were legal. The matches had no time limit and were usually contested on a mat 20x20 meters in total size. A starting zone 8x8 meters was marked on the mat as well as a danger zone which ended at 16x16 Meters. If a Judoka went out of the danger zone the match would be restarted in guard, half guard, or side control depending on where the top positioned judoka was at the time. The match could be won by submission, by stoppage due to a joint break, by choking the opponent out, or by using a pinning hold to keep the opponent down and controlled for 30 seconds. (A pin could only be done from a mounted position.)

Kodokan

Newaza effectiveness and ease of learning by smaller opponents started to change the way judo matches evolved. It was easy to train a Judoka in newaza and have him stop the most fit opponent from a rival school, so Kodokan Judo started to be dominated by newaza fighting. Over time there was so much emphasis was on newaza, due to its success in competition, that Jigoro Kano, the founder of Judo, introduced new rules limiting the amount of time the judoka could stay on the ground. It was stipulated that techniques had to start from tachiwaza (standing stance) and if you pulled your opponent down more than three times he was declared the winner. In 1914 Kano organized the Kosen University Championships at Kyoto Imperial University. This sportive style of competition was formally called the "Kosen Taikai." Kosen Judo is being still practiced at some Japanese universities, particularly at seven of the nine ex-imperial universities of Japan.(Only Osaka University, and National Taiwan University do not practice Kosen Judo in some form) Sometimes it is called shichitei-judo (七帝柔道). There is an annual competition held among those seven universities.

Eventually, in 1925, Jigoro Kano decided to re-vamp the rules of competition judo. One of those changes was to limit the time that competitors could spend grappling on the ground. This effectively stopped the trend that was going on in judo; however, the Kosen Schools were allowed to continue their matches and train the way they had been since the turn of the century. Kosen judo followed its own course, and continues under the old rules even to this day in the Seven Universities Tournament. Kano was careful not to obliterate Kosen judo when he introduced the new rules. He did this for several reasons:

There were relatively few judoka doing newaza-only.
He wanted newaza specialists in judo.
He could not convince himself that doing only newaza was in itself bad.
Kosen judoka also did tachiwaza despite their emphasis in newaza.
The new rules were devised as a means to emphasize tachiwaza, while maintaining newaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosen_judo

[wiesiek]

I have been training Gracie Jiu-jitsu for a short time, and it is my understanding that Helio Gracie's philosophy is to exaust your opponents strength before making your move. This takes away the opponents size/strength factor.


Mike

hell,
what a riscy strategy,
my body was conditioned to withstand 6-7fights, 5 minutes e.a with no pro.
before i atempted to fight in open tournament...

are you shure that you get it right?

[middleway]

You are right! It will hurt the throwing art more than the striking art. Many threads in other forums have discussion such as, "What do you do if your opponent's throwing skill is better than yours?" One of the suggestion is to use "pulling guard". I just don't think this is a right attitude to solve that problem. You should develop your throwing skill and make it better instead.

But why? Purely for the sake of saving the throwing arts? they can survive anyway, make a sport format where this move is not allowed and there you have it....

If this move is really THAT useful and successful against people trying to throw, it should be embraced as a great method in the throwing arts?

As has been said though, outside the throwing sport format. its no biggy.

chris

[H2O]

What happened to your dragon? I like H2O dragon much better than H2O.

Fong told me that I had to keep my dragon in my pants

[johnwang]

But why? Purely for the sake of saving the throwing arts? they can survive anyway,

It's like to use your grappling skill to deal with a boxer. Even if you can choke that boxer out. it still won't improve your striking skill. IMO, I prefer to spend time to improve my striking skill. In the long run I'll get more out of my training.

I like to catch side kick and I have very high successful rate in that. I still train side kick myself. To be able to counter a side kick is one thing. To be able to use side kick as offense tool is another. I just feel more "balanced" this way in my training.

[H2O]

But why? Purely for the sake of saving the throwing arts? they can survive anyway,

It's like to use your grappling skill to deal with a boxer. Even if you can choke that boxer out. it still won't improve your striking skill. IMO, I prefer to spend time to improve my striking skill. In the long run I'll get more out of my training.

I like to catch side kick and I have very high successful rate in that. I still train side kick myself. To be able to counter a side kick is one thing. To be able to use side kick as offense tool is another. I just feel more "balanced" this way in my training.

I agree with this 100 % in training. In a fight though, I'm going to try and capitalize on every advantage that I can. If I guy can out box me or out throw me, I'm taking them to the ground. Otherwise, I'm using my Shuai to take them into the gound. When training though, I box boxers, grapple grapplers, and throw throwers.

[middleway]

I agree with this 100 % in training. In a fight though, I'm going to try and capitalize on every advantage that I can. If I guy can out box me or out throw me, I'm taking them to the ground. Otherwise, I'm using my Shuai to take them into the gound. When training though, I box boxers, grapple grapplers, and throw throwers.

agreed.

Cheers
Chris