See what other teachers have to offer.

[AllanF]

This thread is the result of an after thought from the Liu Chengde video thread.
It was hinted at that going to other teachers is a good idea. I am pretty much in line with this idea, not that i have seen other teachers yet (except when they have come to do push hands with us).

So the purpose of this thread is five fold.

1) Is it important to you to see other teachers?
2) What can be gained from doing so? (Think that is an obvious one but hope someone with give me a surprising answer)
3) When should you do it? (ie How far along in your training would it be a good idea to do that? 3 years 5 years 10 years?) This is one of the reason i have not gone to see another teacher as yet, as i don't think my training is far enough down the line.
4) Is going to teachers of other styles the way to go or should you stay within your own style? ie) Yang taiji only, or perhaps Taiji only regardless of family etc.
5) If you have gone to see what other teachers have had to offer what were you experiences like, good, bad or just plain ugly? And was your own teacher happy that you did it or otherwise?

I for one would love to go and see Liu Chengde and Li Chugong (both Hong Junsheng's tudi) as well as Chen Yu.

Allan

[Mike Roberts]

my teacher has always advised us to go out and train with other teachers and groups, and after doing so for many years i now realize that i had a damn good teacher.
I have been to a few teachers that have told me that if i keep coming to their classes i have to totally give up my old style or teacher.


Good luck

Mike

[middleway]

I have always try to go to seminars etc by good guys if i have heard good things.

There is something to be said for seeing what really good guys have IMO. Both to see how your training stacks up and to glean some insight into where their method or training is coming from. Also it is valuable to feel the teachers 'quality of force'.

One thing i always pick up on more than anything else is the teachers demeanour, attitude and general 'presence'. I think this says alot about the teacher and the system they have devoted their time too.

One important point is to realise that going to see different teachers does NOT have to be to learn their method or practice. It can simply be for the enjoyment of the experience and the general martial arty interest. In addition to this however there is something to be said for training with students of another style at seminars, this can be a very valuable experience in itself if they are open and willing to 'throw down' without acting like an arse.

cheers
Chris

[mrtoes]

Hi Allen,

2) What can be gained from doing so? (Think that is an obvious one but hope someone with give me a surprising answer)

Perspective on your practice and seeing what skills and qualities other practitioners have. Seeing what level of strength, skill and fighting ability other students of other teachers have compared to you. And quite simply helping to figure out what you like about what you do, what part of your practice is important to you. This has been very helpful for me.

3) When should you do it? (ie How far along in your training would it be a good idea to do that? 3 years 5 years 10 years?) This is one of the reason i have not gone to see another teacher as yet, as i don't think my training is far enough down the line.

Well it's down to when you feel like doing it of course, but there's no reason why you can't do this straight away. There's a caveat with all this of course, which is that it's good to look around but if you find yourself doing a bit of this and a bit of that without really committing to anything then it may mean that your gong fu may remain shallow. I like to look around but I feel that I can only really do justice to practising one style at any one time.

4) Is going to teachers of other styles the way to go or should you stay within your own style? ie) Yang taiji only, or perhaps Taiji only regardless of family etc.

Very useful to see what other people get up to. I have done hsing i/bagua, but looking at what other judo/various kung fu/mma/boxing/muay thai/tai chi/hsing i/bagua/krav/bjj peeps have got up to has been fascinating, educative and has made more clear what I do and don't get out of my practice.

5) If you have gone to see what other teachers have had to offer what were you experiences like, good, bad or just plain ugly? And was your own teacher happy that you did it or otherwise?

Ground fighting made me feel like a turtle that had been turned on it's back, I really enjoyed it but decided I wasn't ready to go there yet.
Judo made me realise how good standing grappling was - that's an area I really want to look into more.
MT/boxing/MMA resulted in my ass getting handed to me and made me realise that I wanted to train for combat rather than for health.

No real bad experiences, apart from a cracked rib from the judo class. Don't remember anyone acting like an ass.

Matthew.

[Pat]

BTDT is five minutes! but...

Cross-training is essential. Plus it is humbling!

Any teacher/ coach worth his salt should not be afraid of his students trying the water in other places. If what he teaches is really what they want, they will come back.

Cross-training helps me to focus on my main path, also. Kinda weird, but that is how it works for me.

[Ralteria]

BTDT is five minutes! but...

Cross-training is essential. Plus it it humbling!

Any teacher/ coach worth his salt should not be afraid of his students trying the water in other places. If what he teaches is really what they want, they will come back.

Cross-training helps me to focus on my main path, also. Kinda weird, but that is how it works for me.

"If you are truly to understand something you must be able to separate yourself from it and view it from afar. Human beings are the same. You must be able to look at yourself from another's point of view. In the same way by studying Tai Chi I began to have a much deeper understanding of Karate. You can't do this unless you can grasp the nature of opposite entities. Everything is about balance. We also see balance in nature. For example if male and female become one, a new life is born, everything is balance and nature. Each of these things has a role and individuality." - Hirokazu Kanazawa

[everything]

in some schools within the same "style" there are multiple teachers, so do you mean multiple styles/arts, or literally multiple teachers? in all modern, elite competitive athletics, there are multiple coaches. no one person can possibly give you the best coaching, information, etc., martial arts or otherwise.

[Areios]

my teacher has always advised us to go out and train with other teachers and groups, and after doing so for many years i now realize that i had a damn good teacher.
I have been to a few teachers that have told me that if i keep coming to their classes i have to totally give up my old style or teacher.


Good luck

Mike

Same here.

[Ian]

1) Is it important to you to see other teachers?

It's extremely important.

2) What can be gained from doing so?

Nobody's has the monopoly on good movement. The majority of jedi-level practitioners have gone through multiple teachers.

3) When should you do it? (ie How far along in your training would it be a good idea to do that? 3 years 5 years 10 years?) This is one of the reason i have not gone to see another teacher as yet, as i don't think my training is far enough down the line.

You should do it from day one.

Finding a good teacher is the same as shopping around. Who waits 3-10 years before shopping around? You could be wasting 3-10 years getting the wrong thing when you could've found something so much better.

The worst is you wouldn't even be aware of it. And you'd have built up all these bad habits that you'd then have to unlearn.

(Not saying anything about your training - I don't know what you do / who your teacher is )

4) Is going to teachers of other styles the way to go or should you stay within your own style? ie) Yang taiji only, or perhaps Taiji only regardless of family etc.

Inbreeding / style incest.

I for one would love to go and see Liu Chengde and Li Chugong (both Hong Junsheng's tudi)

I didn't know Liu was a disciple of Hong. That's really cool.

[Bhassler]

Even if your teacher is the shiznit and you know it, checking out other teachers/styles begs the question "how would I deal with a guy like this?" or "what can I steal?" Always good to think about stuff like that.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I"ve had several teachers.

Each had something useful to offer.

[XiaoXiong]

I started bjj a few months ago after over five years of bagua and xingyi with a little taiji. I have always visited other schools and done different kinds of work mostly to see where exactly my training has gotten me. Testing skills is cool because if you can hang with someone who's really good at their game and play it on their turf under their terms then you know you have something useful.

I love to play bjj because it doesn't have an analogue for most of the skills in bagua. Ultimately if you want to measure your achievement, you have to test skills, and I like to test my ability to understand martial arts by looking at other teachers work. How quickly can I pick up on the idea and find the common thread?

At my bjj school, there is bjj, judo, krav maga, mt, mma, and kali. So even though I only do the bjj class there, I get exposed to all that other stuff. I also love to spar with the mma guys, and try to figure out ways to transition smoothly from my ima game standing to bjj and other ways of fighting on the ground.

J

[Bodywork]

I for one would love to go and see Liu Chengde and Li Chugong (both Hong Junsheng's tudi)

I didn't know Liu was a disciple of Hong. That's really cool.

Liu also trained with Chen Fake's daughter as well as other people.

Training
I insist people who train with me go out and train elsewhere for a while and also that they go grapple.
So that said, maybe we also need to be mindful of a teachers efforts eh? There is a lot of effort involved in teaching and if you want to pass on an art there are heartbreaks involved when a student bails. Worse, if he thinks he got the goods and he bails!!
I know that doesn't register well in the "It’s all about me" 21st century but it may have serious repercussions that many folks are not even aware of in their "studies."

[johnwang]

There could be problems if different teachers have different believes. If one teacher doesn't believe in Qi but the other does, there could be big confusion amoung students. An old friends of mine turned into a Qi believer. When he put hand 1 foot away from my student's head and tried to help my student to raise up the Qi. My students all turned around and looked at me. What could I say? He was my old friend.

Sometime even teachers training in the same art will have different opinions. One Judo teacher believes that one can have double-collar grip (or double-lapel grip) to execute almost any throws. My teacher always told me that if I give my opponent too much freedom on his limbs, I just make it more difficult for myself. I should have control on one of my opponent's arm so it will be harder for him to apply counter with other arm. If a student have both teachers then which teacher should they believe?

[everything]

This topic is addressed nicely by this article: http://www.judoinfo.com/research18.htm

3.1 The god and the puzzle builder : opposite ideal types of coaches

God-coaches

In Genesis one can read that God created man just like him. Some coaches also show these “godlike urges” and try to create judokas like their own image. This is the type of coach that only teaches and stimulates what he can do or apply. Taking into account the success of their own complex of techniques the ex-topjudokas sometimes fall in the beginning of their coach career into this trap.

Puzzle-building coaches

On the opposite site you will find the puzzle builder. This type of coach is open for the full technique offer. He does not start by taking himself as an example, but for every situation he tries to find the right solution for each judoka. He is not ashamed to ask for suggestions from his colleagues.

Traditionally in CMA, I think it's all about the god-coach. Copy the teacher because teacher knows best. Obviously you might teach the same basic boxing or bjj, but you would not give the exact same advice to Frank Mir that you would give to Brock Lesnar if you are prepping one of them for their upcoming fight, or even just in general.

Regardless, it's ultimately up to the student to solve the puzzle so I'm not sure it really matters too much what kind of teacher or teachers one has. Most traditional MA teachers probably have not studied formal educational theory and practice. It probably matters a lot more how smart a student is about learning a subject. Josh Waitzkin somewhat alludes to the puzzle development approach in his book The Art of Learning. He learned different skills on the streets from chess hustlers than he did from his formal coach, but was able to draw on the different lessons and synthesize them into his own game. A good student can learn from conflicting approaches and good and bad teachers.