Best cardio for fighting

[I am...]

rolling, the same thing, you'll get cardio, but you also go anaerobic at times.

EXACTLY! The whole point of endurance is to be able to endure the rigors you will likely face. If we're talking combat sports, it means aerobic levels interspersed with bouts of anaerobic intensity over 3 to 5 minutes. If we're talking THE STREETS (TM) and a fight lasts more than a few seconds, you're probably screwed anyway (with the exception of running away, but most times you only have to have more gas than the other guy has desire to continue the conflict.)

Just don't fool yourself that aerobic endurance will help you more than marginally in a fight. On the other hand, anaerobic conditioning results in increased VO2 max by possibly one of the most effective means. The only discussion should be which is to be emphasized, ATP-CP storage (short term anaerobic) or glycogen storage (long term anaerobic). That is dependent on whether you want combat sports, or THE STREETS (TM).

If we're talking hunting/tracking prey till it gases, marathon/ solely aerobic training is OK.

I couldn't agree more on this, anaerobic intervals with some aerobic overall training gets the body where it needs to be to excel under these conditions. Learning to keep moving while feeling the effects of anaerobic activity is also a huge physical and psychological advantage over someone that has not.

to be honest I've never needed cardio in a fight - ring or otherwise.

although it's good to do for other reasons.

This doesn't necessarily mean much for another person. I would also argue that if you havent needed physical conditioning in a sport fight, the overall level of competition you faced was likely pretty low. Squaring off with a well trained opponent that doesn't make any dumb mistakes, can and will hurt you fast, and has trained their body to the point where it is "lean and mean" is fairly often an exhausting process, even if only for 2 or 3 rounds. For sport fighting, think of conditioning as "foundation" work. Without it, no matter what you know, you are likely in for some potential trouble. For day to day scenarios, it is still valuable, but how much so is of course dictated by the situation. A 10 second bar fight will demand a lot less from your body, than say, insulting a family of machete carrying fieldworkers, and the resulting run through the jungle.

[Areios]

Sounds reasonable...to a point. First thing that comes to mind is that Forrest's friend isn't able to calm his mind and body down in a fight and promptly throws his breathing out the window when it comes to the fight. That would gas anyone regardless of training.

that;s what i was thinking. the science is pretty clear on VO2 max and intervals, but i think that wrestling etc. is still a must.

Totaly agree on that. Simple sparring is not enough.

[neijia_boxer]

I didnt mention in my original post that Forrest Griffin does train in circuits, weights, and other type of supplementation. he says he has various coaches for this. what he was emphasizing was that even though he does circuits and VO2 max type intervals, nothing prepares your cardio better for fighting than sparring fresh opponets and also jui-jitsu rolling from bad positions.

[Ian]

to be honest I've never needed cardio in a fight - ring or otherwise.

although it's good to do for other reasons.

This doesn't necessarily mean much for another person. I would also argue that if you havent needed physical conditioning in a sport fight, the overall level of competition you faced was likely pretty low.

What, not even the benefit of the doubt? Not even a 'probably'?

The 'secret' is proper breathing, keeping relaxed under pressure, and not doing anything flashy.

E.g. I can roll all day at a bjj club and have never gassed out. Also back to back sparring and never gas out.

For sport fighting, think of conditioning as "foundation" work. Without it, no matter what you know, you are likely in for some potential trouble.

Thank you, I will keep this in mind

A 10 second bar fight will demand a lot less from your body, than say, insulting a family of machete carrying fieldworkers, and the resulting run through the jungle.

lol becuase this is what I do on a Friday night

[I am...]

To each their own of course, I was speaking in the context of sport fighting.

You will be hard pressed to find one pro boxer for example that doesn't train a ton of conditioning. They are not all training the same stuff under the same coaches either, and the science of that ring sport has been under development for quite some time. At the higher tiers you just cant hang with someone that has the skills you do, relaxes under pressure, etc. as well as the added benefit of the body adaptation to working under anaerobic demand, if you don't. They will get more bang for their proverbial buck. While many skills have great benefits that go with their training, being in shape and having a resilient body that is adapted to a ring sport is a huge one when competing in said ring sport.

S.A.I.D. generally is a good rule to follow:
Specific
Adaptation to
Implied
Demands

[Ian]

I'm primarily interested in SD, but regularly pressure test. Sometimes (not often) that involves sport formats.

You mentioned boxers - boxers take one perspective and bring it to its natural conclusion.

They don't, however, have a wide variety of techniques specifically geared towards overriding the adrenaline dump, relaxing under pressure, breathing so that you don't gas out etc. We do. We take a different perspective to its natural conclusion.

Therefore, if you want to go with the school of thought that more cardio is better, that's fine.

The only times I remember gassing out were when I was forced to fight like a tkd or karate or muay thai guy.

No disrespect to those styles - I just do something different.

[I am...]

They don't, however, have a wide variety of techniques specifically geared towards overriding the adrenaline dump, relaxing under pressure, breathing so that you don't gas out etc. We do. We take a different perspective to its natural conclusion.

Therefore, if you want to go with the school of thought that more cardio is better, that's fine.

The only times I remember gassing out were when I was forced to fight like a tkd or karate or muay thai guy.

No disrespect to those styles - I just do something different.

You don't have to consider my viewpoint an argument, I am just sharing it since I have experience and continuing exposure on the topic at hand, as well as several acquaintances that have come from different sport fighting backgrounds. Do you feel that either of the fighters in Gatti vs. Ward II for example, approached that fight without having to face adrenaline dump, relaxing under pressure, or breathing so they didn't gas out as prime focal points of their training? The prior fight between them resulted in broken bones, 12 rounds all out, and would have put many men out of their careers for good. (If you haven't seen those fights I would recommend them for entertainment value if nothing else )

I am far from "cardio is the end all" in my views, but I also have found it to be the case that many that haven't experienced that level of training are often not aware of how large of an advantage it can be in some formats.

I don't know all of what your training consists of, but I have trained and still do in some cases train, RMA before, as well as other relaxed and "internal" arts. There are indeed some things that are approached differently, but that doesn't necessarily mean that across the board, some others don't end up training some of the same things, be it from a physical, psychological, or spiritual perspective.

[mrtoes]

Hi Ian,

Don't you go hill running with 30kg on your back? That sounds like pretty serious cardio to me

Matthew.

[Ian]

Matthew, there's a clear qualitative difference between using your cardio skillz and simply being relaxed. When I spar I never feel like my pulmonary and respiratory systems are under more strain than when I'm performing a very slow jog (almost a walk).

To be clear I try to engage as few phasic muscles as possible, use my form as much as possible, breathe the systema way (this information is available in a number of places), I don't have my hands up in a boxer's guard (there are reasons for this, outside the scope of this discussion), I don't do continuous high kicks etc.

When I spar, I can honestly spar all day. I sweat but never run out of breath. This isn't a brag, it's just an observation.

[mrtoes]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the info - I personally have particular problems relaxing especially under pressure (I get reminded to relax at least once a lesson) and I am sure that this contributes to me getting wiped out quicker when I'm sparring. I'll get there I guess. Do you mind me asking, do you still not get out of breath when you're with someone who is really going for it and is on top of you? If neither of us is going for it I can keep going for quite a while, but if we're going quite full out it's another story - especially if I'm on the ground.

Matthew.

[Ian]

Hey Matthew,

If someone is really going for it then the result will be that one of you taps out or gets knocked out. You won't be able to spar for long anyway.

If you're on the ground and both giving full resistance, it's still possible to stay relaxed for extended periods of time. Is it just about getting good cardio? I don't think so. One time I stopped cardio for a year and never gassed out in judo/bjj class, either.

For me, the important thing to keep in mind is, even if (especially if) someone is bearing down on you and has the advantage, move and breathe. When you move and breathe you have options. When you don't move and breathe... well, you're already on a sinking ship. Your situation won't strategically improve by staying there.

An interesting thing to note is that people don't always gas out because they have poor cardio. People often gas out because of unconscious, physical or psychological breath disruptions, and they don't notice it until too late. I don't see this addressed in many styles.

If your SOP is

-situation good - move and breathe
-situation critical - move and breathe

you just never get close to the point where you're out of breath.

Obviously when you get into SD training, the aim is to resolve problems as quickly as possible. But in the parter training, skill acquisition phase, you should ideally be able to train all day without tiring.

Just my opinion.

[mrtoes]

Thanks for the detailed reply Ian. When I'm under pressure my breath definitely becomes disrupted, but it hadn't occurred to me that this might be related to me getting wiped out. Not because breathing isn't covered in my training, but because under pressure I find it difficult to hold all these principles together. Next time I'm scrapping I'll try to keep an emphasis on keeping relaxed breathing, and see where it goes.

It does surprise me how quickly I can gas when the pressure is really on, because my level of fitness is not bad, and under a lighter load I can keep going for a lot longer. I was training with a friend in the park last weekend and two hours had gone before I knew it. Whereas the week before in class, we were doing spar with one person per minute for five minutes, and at the end of that I was finished. I'm not sure the intensity was that much higher, but my stress levels certainly were.

To be technical about it, do you think what you are doing is using relaxation to keep your system inside the aerobic rather than anaerobic zone?

Seems like a lot of things recently keep coming down to trying to relax! Unfortuately that's the bit I'm bad at

Matthew.

[DeusTrismegistus]

My teacher has sparred at high intensities for an hour and half and he will not even be breathing audibly when he is done or any time during. However when he trained san shou fighters cardio and interval training was very important too. Relaxation and continuous breathing without tensing is probably the most important thing you can do to increase stamina. However increasing VO2 max and cardio ability as well as the lactic acid threshold will increase the level of intensity that this can be maintained. This isn't an either or situation, both are important.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

My teacher has sparred at high intensities for an hour and half and he will not even be breathing audibly when he is done or any time during.

really?

[DeusTrismegistus]

My teacher has sparred at high intensities for an hour and half and he will not even be breathing audibly when he is done or any time during.

really?

Yep. Its a little disconcerting when sparring him and gasping for air while he never opens his mouth, at the same time its inspiring and some day I hope to be in good enough physical condition and reach a level of relaxation where I can do the same.