Use 挽 (Wan - Over Hook) To Set Your Opponent Up

[johnwang]

Wan is the set up move for many throws. One way to use your Wan is to use "over hook - your arm surround your opponent's shoulder or upper arm), and put one of your leg between your opponent's legs, you can force your opponent's body to move into a certain direction, this will open many doors for you and give you more chance to attack since your opponent is moving.

Do you think this principle can be integrated into Taiji push hands? Does Judo use this principle in their game plan?

[H2O]

That's my primary grip in Judo. I don't know about using it in push hands, but my counter to that grip comes straight out of Tai Chi.

[johnwang]

Do you call "over hook" a "grip"? It's arm circling and not fingers grabbing. You can even use it if you have boxing gloves on.

[H2O]

Yes, same thing. I use Peng energy to hold the guy in tight. I also like to use Kao to drive my shoulder into his jaw> It's a little bit of a variation, but the same basic idea.

[johnwang]

I use Peng energy to hold the guy in tight.

Judo (or SC) guys use Peng energy but they never talk about it.

[H2O]

Yup

[AllanF]

Don't see why this can't or isn't used in push hands. i admit i am a bit of difficulty visualizing it but it sounds like something we do in PH all the time.

[johnwang]

a bit of difficulty visualizing it.

Let me try to explain it a bit more detail. It sounds complicate but it's really a very simple principle. You put pressure on your opponent's shoulder or elbow joint and force him to move in certain direction, you then borrow his resistence force and throw him in the opposit direction.

- You step in your right leg between your opponent's legs,
- move your right arm over your opponent's left shoulder,
- surround under his left shoulder (you get an over hook now).
- You use stealing step to step back your left leg,
- spring your right leg back on your opponent's left leg and end with a low bow-arrow stance,
- Move your right arm forward like you are pitching an under arm soft ball, and
- foorce your opponent to move forward.
- Since you only block his left leg, he can steps in his right leg without any problem (you may want him to do that).
- If he can't step his left leg over your right leg, he will be down by your left leg blocking.
- If he can steps his left leg over your right leg, you can use right leg stealing step and throw him in the opposit direction.

It's very similiar to this clip (the 4th demo at 0,44) but using "over hook" instead.

http://johnswang.com/Chang_sc_2.WMV

[H2O]

Don't see why this can't or isn't used in push hands. i admit i am a bit of difficulty visualizing it but it sounds like something we do in PH all the time.

Because you're 'hugging' the guy into you. His first instinct is going to be to escape backward. If you hold him in, you're 'resisting'. That makes it Shuai, not Tui Shou.

I like to turn with the guy once I make torso contact. Basically misalign his shoulders and hips, then bend forward, which bends him backward and locks his spine. Easy to throw someone if you have their spine locked. That's the part where the push hands comes in.

[johnwang]

Because you're 'hugging' the guy into you. His first instinct is going to be to escape backward. If you hold him in, you're 'resisting'. That makes it Shuai, not Tui Shou.

If your opponent's first instinct is going to escape backward, he is resisting.

The time that you feel your opponent's resistance, the time that you reverse your direction. I don't see this as "you are resisting" but "he is resisting". Your opponent can always borrow your "over hook" force and keep moving forward. This way you may have to use continuous Wan (like continuous cracking, one cracking after another), the principle that you keep attacking the same direction - your opponent borrows your force, you borrow his force, he borrows your force again, you borrow his force again, ...).

[H2O]

I do that with diagonal cut. I use Wan to yank him into me, then drive forward with the reap. Usually I use the Wan to yank him into my shoulder and then control his head that way.

What the push hands teaches you is to feel that point in time when you should drive forward.It's the same 'feel' a SC develops after 25 or 20 years, it's just a short cut to develop those instincts. It's a good advantage to have, but I still have to put in my time on the mat if I want fight with it. Invest in loss and all that jazz.

But back to the topic. Wan is one of the major grips in Judo. I throw O Soto, Harai Goshi, and Uchi Mata off that grip. I also have a nice Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi from there that is really more of a forward march than a true Sasae.

[johnwang]

In SC, Wan is an open doors move. You may not be able to use it to throw your opponent (you can if you block both of his legs), but it will give you many other opportunities.

[AllanF]

Ah yup i understand better now, and it does some like something that we use a lot of in free pushing...or at least try to!

Eg: Presuming your are standing right foot forward.
- If the opponent puts pressure on your right arm (from the outside, pushing inwards) you relax it and let it slip under his armpit. Allow the hand to 'hook' around the opponent's back/waist. (Your force should be going slightly to the front left angle).
- At the same time step with your left leg to the the outside of the opponent's right leg.
- Then use the resistance from your opponent turn your waist tot he right to throw him towards your right and behind you.

Was trying to find a clip of one of Wang Xian's sons demoing this on youtube but can't find it.

[H2O]

Over the top of the shoulder, not under the armpit. Also, instead of throwing him out, hug him into you. Make sense?

I know the move you're talking about. It's a good technique.

[johnwang]

I know what you are talking about. Over hook is just one of the many contact points for Wan. You can grab his belt in front or from behind, colar behind the neck as you have just described, or the elbow push as GM Chang's demo. Wan is a principle that you force your opponent to move into a certain direction. There are many different contact points for that.

It's giving before taking, one of the major SC principles. I'm not sure it's Taiji principle though. Some Taiji guys may not like to "give".