Fighting dictated by universal principles

[neijia_boxer]

Had a good sparring class last night where the instructor said- "Fighting is dictated by universal principles"...we went over two principles that scream 2 taijiquan classic principles.

the first was based on the taiji classic "if my opponet attacks, I arrive before he does" or Taiji classic: It is said if the opponent does not move, then I do not move.
At the opponent's slightest move, I move first."
in this demonstration the instructor had a guy throw a strike or kick and he return what he termed a 'reaction strike' in which he hit the guy before the guy hit him using a short punch or kick.

The second was called 'set point'. Set point in fighting is attacking before a guy is able to set in (or root) where he has a powerful strike based on connecting to the ground. for instance if a guy is throwing a punch he has to step and root to have the link from "foot, leg, hip/waist/spine- arm" so hitting or pushing the guy before he makes his set point is the drill.



This is a favorite with one of my sensing/push hands instructors when keeping a guy off balanced or away from a 'set point' so that he can not have an effective push or strike.

Taiji Classic:

The chin [intrinsic strength] should be
rooted in the feet,
generated from the legs,
controlled by the waist, and
manifested through the fingers.
If correct timing and position are not achieved,
the body will become disordered
and will not move as an integrated whole;

[Darth Rock&Roll]

things to remember:

"if you can"

"can you?"

[Wanderingdragon]

Just to be contrary and maybe give you some food for thought

The center is rooted when it strikes
it is generated by necessity
controlled by intent
and manifest in heart
it's strength is constant.

[johnwang]

Taiji classic: It is said if the opponent does not move, then I do not move.

If you always have to wait for a girl to come to you, you may never be able to have your 1st date.

[Wanderingdragon]

if you bait your trap properly your prey will offer itself to you

[johnwang]

if you bait your trap properly your prey will offer itself to you

Putting socks in your pants?

Raising or dropping your guard may be able to invite your opponent to come to you. The problem is when and how your opponent will come to you depend on your opponent and not you. That kind of "unpredictable" feeling is not good because you will never be able to predict what combo your opponent is going to set up from his initial attack. His initial attack could be a "trap" and waiting for you to response.

"If you don't move, I won't move. If you move, I'll move faster than you" may not always work if the cheating game is involved.

[everything]

it (baiting and waiting) works remarkably well for Lyoto Machida, but then, otoh, lately we see him take the initiative to even greater effect.

I guess the best thing is if the girls come to you often and you can also go to them, and you get the desired result either way.

[Wanderingdragon]

Socks in the pants is for those who are afraid of girls.

If you throw a right jab at your opponents face he must cover , by doing so you already know what you have left open to attack if you are smart you already know how to cover but even moreso, you also know what he leaves open by his attack, these are not bridging opportunities these are the gateway to your free opportunity to go where he is not, if you always know you he will always be exposed.
This is classic.

No woman enjoys a sock and every man enjoys the feel of flesh.

[Bodywork]

The jin [intrinsic strength] should be
rooted in the feet,
generated from the legs,
controlled by the waist, and
manifested through the fingers.
If correct timing and position are not achieved,
the body will become disordered
and will not move as an integrated whole

That will not be agreed to in actual practice by everyone. Even those who agree in words moves differently according to that model. As for mainifesting through the fingers? well, Head and shoulder, chest wall, elbows, knees and any other body part along its spiral axis lines works just fine too!

for instance if a guy is throwing a punch he has to step and root to have the link from "foot, leg, hip/waist/spine- arm" so hitting or pushing the guy before he makes his set point is the drill.

This is the way an external guy links his body for strikes. A set point and the idea of a set point should be antithetical to what a neijia boxer would EVER do. It is not the way we move or think of moving. Again there is no set point for ultimate transfer or dedicated delivery of load. Its a continuam and it doesn't go beyond yourself. So them screwing with it and triyng to control it can lead to some nice set-ups of your own as counters.
Speaking of which...
Counter punching (the more normative, time tested nomenclature, for what that guy calls a "reaction punch") may seem all fine and good till you meet guys who specialize in feints and foot work meant to draw out a counter puncher who they then tag...lights out! And many great fighters were and still are predictable, which is why you don't like to have your shit on film.
Better still is to have a good all around game, be ambidextrous be a good stand-up and ground guy, kick and puncher and thrower. It's not called "a fighting science" for no good reason.

[Juan]

"if my opponet attacks, I arrive before he does" or Taiji classic: It is said if the opponent does not move, then I do not move.
At the opponent's slightest move, I move first."

This is something I partially disagree with as a fighting principle. One does not always have to wait for the opponent to move. In fact I like to be the aggressor. Also, if I am hurting you it gives you less time to hurt me. That is if you have not effectively "moved first." This is something I learned from my first fight. When the dude broke my nose I fucking hit him with every weapon I had so he would stop hurting me. I did not wait for him to move to make the first move, why give him another opportunity to land something else. Not that he didn't land another punch or kick in that round but he spent alot more time backing up dealing with what I was throwing at him.

Not that this principle is completely wrong. When I am sparring I like to work on counter punching, head movement (need lots of work here), parrying and blocking because I think this is were the "sweet science" of fighting really is. But one absolutely does not need to wait for the other to make the first move in a fight.

[neijia_boxer]

Several of ya'll a bit off the mark.

Those were someone elses translations of various taiji classics. i cut and pasted the taiji classic i felt that was similar to the lesson.

Second- he was just demonstrating one of many universal fighting principles and I related it to a translated taiji classic of similar nature. In no way , shape, or form was my instructor saying this is the way to fight or the principle you must always adhere to. It is all relative to a fight, not absolute.

If you read the taiji classics, they say many things- those were just parts of the whole.

i guess a youtube of the lesson would be needed to make better sense of the drilling and principle he wanted to convey.

[Juan]

Neija,

My response was not a critique of your teacher's demonstration/teaching but rather the principle as a whole. It does have it's time and place but I don't think one should always have to wait for the opponent to move first.

Juan

[neijia_boxer]

Juan,

Nor was I singling you or anyone else out. One should never have to wait for an opponent to move to attack or counter attack. Not sure why the Taiji classic was translated to be interpreted that way.

The point I was trying to make was there is some principle in fighting that one might find useful in there game.

1. As a guy is trying to hit you, you can take a route or angle that can beat him to the punch.
2. Never give a guy a chance or take away his chance (during combat) to get his 'set point'.

This is the basis of the principles he was discussing.

you even said it yourself- "why give him another opportunity to land something else" therefore you attacked him in a way so he could not find his set point. that is the second principle he was discussing.

There were some other cool things he talked about as well concerning feints and fakes. feints being more use of head and body, while fakes are more faking a punch or kick, both to get a reaction out of an opponent.

m

[neijia_boxer]

I just thought is was hella cool while in class that this muay thai/MMA guy with no knowledge of internal martial arts was actually talking some taiji principles and demonstrated it with some punches and kicks.

A Tai chi instructor with internal knowledge would rather than do some pushing hands with a girl student to demo a principle .

thats all.

[D_Glenn]

Had a good sparring class last night where the instructor said- "Fighting is dictated by universal principles"...we went over two principles that scream 2 taijiquan classic principles.

the first was based on the taiji classic "if my opponet attacks, I arrive before he does" or Taiji classic: It is said if the opponent does not move, then I do not move.
At the opponent's slightest move, I move first."
in this demonstration the instructor had a guy throw a strike or kick and he return what he termed a 'reaction strike' in which he hit the guy before the guy hit him using a short punch or kick.

The second was called 'set point'. Set point in fighting is attacking before a guy is able to set in (or root) where he has a powerful strike based on connecting to the ground. for instance if a guy is throwing a punch he has to step and root to have the link from "foot, leg, hip/waist/spine- arm" so hitting or pushing the guy before he makes his set point is the drill.



This is a favorite with one of my sensing/push hands instructors when keeping a guy off balanced or away from a 'set point' so that he can not have an effective push or strike.

Taiji Classic:

The chin [intrinsic strength] should be
rooted in the feet,
generated from the legs,
controlled by the waist, and
manifested through the fingers.
If correct timing and position are not achieved,
the body will become disordered
and will not move as an integrated whole;

In bagua there are 3 stages or levels of skill one can obtain- the first is natural 'to coerce or force a change[in the opponent]', the 2nd level is to be able to 'transform an opponent's change' or make their attack/defense useless, the 3rd level and essentially what Taijiquan is and starts out with which is to 'follow the opponent's change' ( sui 隨 bian huan 變換) which is letting the opponent's attack come to it's end and following it back right as they 'change' and you are actually ahead of their own 'yi', which is ' I arrive first'.

If you attack first then you are doing one of the first 2 methods but if you only want to do the 3rd then you have to wait for the opponent to attack first. Although 'mian' (綿 soft) is way of putting hands out (attacks) that draw the opponent's 'yi' out by appearing to be soft and weak, so 'mian' and 'sui' work together and could be considered attack and defense.


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