For those who train hard and overtraining

[Jonny]

Jonny,

Please understand, I'm not picking on you, so to speak, I've used your post as impetus to make a point that applies to everyone's training.

RE: "That's why I train my neigong before my waigong. I try to see it holisitically, training my body in one session.". Yeah, I understand. Using the term "holistic" is a very trendy thing to do in the last 15 to 20 years, and will automatically earn you brownie points in the IMA world especially. However, there's a lot more difference than just that between neigong and waigong. In fact, if your distinction ends there, you're essentially lumping all waigong-oriented training into one convenient category, and to do so would be to make a number of gross mistakes in understanding. Resistance exercise is very different from cardiovascular training, which is equally different from flexibility training, which is also equally different from neuromotor coordination training.

IOW, "holistic" training doesn't mean mixing everything altogether as one big mish-mash. It means covering all the bases and not training in any one area exclusively or to the detriment of the others. One will still receive far superior results by training each category in such a way that the training for that attribute is tailored and dedicated to producing the optimum results for that attribute. In this way, one is able to cover every area of training (IOW, one's training can be holistic) but still be able to maximize the results for each attribute in turn rather than be forced into a mediocre compromise of all of them by mixing the training all together.

I understand what you are saying. Perhaps I will try to separate my training for now. I am a mere beginner on the IMA path - still learning, and I'm sure your knowledge is deeper than mine. Please understand your words are not falling on deaf ears, and I appreciate your advice. I will give this matter some thought in the coming days. In fact, I will ask my shifu about it today at class.

[neijia_boxer]

when it comes to training hard, its all about quality over quantity. at our school the fighter training classes are 60-90 minutes long. they are very intense with strength training (weights or kettlebells), sparring, and partner and bag drills, the mma classes add rounds of no-gi grappling. that is all that is needed...not hours of b.s.

what makes it intense is the coaches and fellow partners. they all have experience in fighting and being trained for fights, so they know what it takes. They come from coaches who fought, from coaches who fought. most IMA coaches have never been in a fight or went through intense fight training. They might borrow some cool techniques they read on a blog, but that is not the same thing.

many people train on their own and say, "oh i train intensely today". NO you DONT. training intensely is having a fighter coach watch you train to be sure your pushing yourself 110%. When your getting tired they are there to yell at you when you slack up. We have a saying at our school. If we didnt see you training hard (cause you said you were at home training hard) then it didnt happen.

[Chris McKinley]

John,

RE: "I didn't say exactly 30 minutes. You know it's just approximate time. As far as how many reps, it's up to individual.". Okay, that's a little better. I really didn't know it's just approximate time because of the way that you state it. I'm not sure if it's just perhaps a little bit of a language thing or what, but you usually state these things in a very unambiguous and absolute way. I'll try to keep some of that in mind when reading you, but you might consider phrasing it a bit differently than "X always takes Y amount of drills and Z amount of time". That kind of phrasing leaves no room for any other than literal interpretation.

As for the rest of your training agenda description, running, pushups and situps aren't combat training, they're fitness training, and shouldn't be done at the same time as your combat regimen, so that time won't count against the total. The most biggest and most glaring flaw in your schedule is that you have way too many total reps of everything. This is one of the most widespread and classic training flaws out there today, so it's certainly not just something you alone are doing. When you're doing that many reps of anything physical, you unavoidably wind up just going through the motions on most of them. This error is a large part of why I stated that real combat training doesn't take that kind of time. Too many people doing too much work and doing exactly the same training session as they performed yesterday and the day before. When it comes to training for real progress, no two training session in a row should ever be the same.

It's possible to get a lot more results out of a lot fewer reps than you describe. I'll put it this way....if your training hasn't evolved beyond counting reps entirely, then your training is archaic and obsolete at best and could even be inherently counterproductive at worst. Real progress isn't about numbers; it's about constantly and continuously guaging and correcting performance with each and every rep. That's right...each and every rep. I'll state flatly to anyone that if your training hasn't evolved to this point, then you simply aren't making the progress you could be.

It doesn't have to be a jump overnight, though. You could start by simply halfing either the number of total sets or the number of reps per set you're currently performing on a daily basis. Rather than emphasizing the endurance to go that many sets and reps, try putting the emphasis on focusing your intent for each and every rep instead. You'll start to notice a lot more flaws in your performance that way, and you will be able therefore to correct them a lot more rapidly, making the corrections a consistent part of your regular performance.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Chris,

If I am understanding you. Then you are saying...'

1. Training aspects should be separated by attribute or some other criteria.
2. Each separate thing should be trained separately to maximize gain.

For example if we look at physical attributes only. We would possible have a speed and agility category, strength, and cardio or endurance. We should then train each of these in a separate session. We could have 2 sessions each day. So if we have a 30 minute speed and agility in the morning and a 30 minute strength in the afternoon we will train for an hour total. You are simply saying that we will get more out of that hour by separating them than if we were to do a one hour session that included strength and cardio.

Is that correct? If so I agree with it.

Although we can have a lot of different categories. Body builders use the same principle by isolating muscles to maximize gains in each muscle. As martial artists we have a very broad skill set. If we separate things too much and try to spend equal time on everything we will have to take a lot of time. I mean if we break things down only into striking, throwing, standing grappling, ground grappling; we then have 4 categories to practice in and at a half hour each we have 2 hours of practice. Thats pretty reasonable I think. When you throw back in the physical attribute stuff though then you can easily add 2 more hours of training. We can also separate the main 4 I listed above down into their own constituents in varying levels of detail.

How much separation is enough? How much is too much? What ways can we combine things to be beneficial? What ways would be detrimental? How much time do we need? How much time do we need to separate each thing? When training things in isolation how do we integrate that with other things trained in isolation?



As to how much time is too much. That really depends. A half hour of intense weight lifting should be enough to whip your ass. If its not you aren't being intense enough. However at the same time I have spent an hour and a half working on a single technique before. That was low intensity working on more motor coordination and precision type movement though. When I do my tai chi it takes me a half hour just to start to feel good and get in a good groove.

[Chris McKinley]

XiaoXiong,

RE: "Yeah, I just can't see getting serious results from only 1-2 hours a day.". I've trained, trained under and trained with people who could kick the living shit out of anyone on this board at will, most definitely including myself, and most of them don't spend even that much time per day on empty hand combat training.

However, what you're describing isn't all combat training, and that renders any comparison to being apples and oranges. It's also crucial that we be talking about the same general objective as well. With the material you're describing, 'getting good at it' might have nothing whatsoever to do with actual combat. That's not a disparaging of your goals; it's just a statement of fact for clarification of the discussion.

Eight hours a day is absurd. The only time that kind of time-per-session can be fruitful is in very infrequent intensive sessions such as a seminar or camp. It becomes both overtraining and cartoonishly inefficient when used as anything like daily training. Even pros are learning to periodize their daily training for much better results.

[Chris McKinley]

Deus,

RE: "Is that correct?". Yup, abso-freakin'-lutely. I've helped high-intensity athletes and combat trainees overcomes such plateaus this way for many years.

What the rest of your post tells me is that you aren't understanding the distinction between combat training and fitness training. Just as keeping your cardio-to-limit training separate from your anaerobic resistance-to-limit training, you will likewise benefit just as profoundly from keeping your fitness training as a whole separate from your neuromuscular coordination/adaptability training (i.e., combat).

I love the line of questioning you generate. Seriously. That's the kind of thoughtful approach to training I spend my time trying to get people here to adopt. As to how much is too much separation....there isn't a one-size-fits-all. Training has to be tailored to the individual if you want anything other than average results, no matter what training program you employ. The too-simple answer is "there's no such thing as too much isolation". The real answer is "there's no such thing as too much isolation, so long as you take it the other direction and ensure that you incorporate any skill developed that way into the larger skill set as a whole". IOW, you ultimately run up and down the scale as necessary, using the full range of isolation and incorporation optimally and at the appropriate time. By far, the most common problem is that people spend way too much of their training at the incorporation end of the scale.

RE: "A half hour of intense weight lifting should be enough to whip your ass. If its not you aren't being intense enough.". Amen, brothah. Last fall, I put on ten pounds and lost and inch and a half in my waist over the course of exactly nine workouts. One workout per week, each workout lasting no longer than 20-30 minutes, no drugs ever. That's a better average of gains than a typical round of anabolic steroids produces with most people's workouts. Granted, I'm a little better informed than most bodybuilders via my neurophysiology and exercise physiology training, but it's still possible if someone knows what they're doing.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Chris,

When it comes to endurance and cardio and fighting I have a question. The body will adapt to specific activities to become more efficient at that specific activity. An example is running. Someone who runs at high intensities may have very good cardio and endurance at that activity but take the same person and make them do say, skipping, and they won't have the same level of cardio or endurance since the body is not used to that type of muscle movement. Given this doesn't that mean that we should adapt the body to be as efficient as possible in activities that mimick as closely as possible our ultmate end activity? I have more ring fighting in mind than self defense combat.

[Plante]

This thread is great, there is a lot to gain from modern sport science while applying it to martial arts training. The way to "walk the circle every day", "train the taiji form everyday" for the rest of our lives could seem counterproductive if we approach it from a modern sport science perspective. My guess is that by working on a different aspect of it (there are so many layers to the practice) each training session will bring better results than just repeating the identical practice everyday...

[Chris McKinley]

Yes indeedy, sir. Your question calls to reference the principle of Specificity in training. The classic example is batting in baseball. If you want to be good at batting, you have to practice batting. Now, you can put on muscle with resistance exercise, put time in on the ropes and pulleys, and get used to swinging something by chopping some firewood. All of these things can improve your batting to various degrees. But once you've done those things, nothing will improve your batting more than practicing........wait for it......batting. It's why generally warming up the body isn't sufficient when getting ready to bat in a game. We optimize our preparation by actually performing the activity itself just prior to when we need it, i.e., we practice a few warmup swings in the batter's circle.

What this tells us is that to optimize our batting, we'd want to do all of the above in its appropriate time. Guys who add resistance training to their total approach have proven in the last 20 years that average batting ability improves over the old method of practicing only batting. However, it would be silly to take this idea ad absurdum to practice only weightlifting with no batting practice at all. The results would plummet. Therefore, we find that combining them optimally produces superior results to either in exclusion.

[Chris McKinley]

Plante,

RE: "My guess is that by working on a different aspect of it (there are so many layers to the practice) each training session will bring better results than just repeating the identical practice everyday...". More than most folks here have even dreamed of.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Yes indeedy, sir. Your question calls to reference the principle of Specificity in training. The classic example is batting in baseball. If you want to be good at batting, you have to practice batting. Now, you can put on muscle with resistance exercise, put time in on the ropes and pulleys, and get used to swinging something by chopping some firewood. All of these things can improve your batting to various degrees. But once you've done those things, nothing will improve your batting more than practicing........wait for it......batting. It's why generally warming up the body isn't sufficient when getting ready to bat in a game. We optimize our preparation by actually performing the activity itself just prior to when we need it, i.e., we practice a few warmup swings in the batter's circle.

What this tells us is that to optimize our batting, we'd want to do all of the above in its appropriate time. Guys who add resistance training to their total approach have proven in the last 20 years that average batting ability improves over the old method of practicing only batting. However, it would be silly to take this idea ad absurdum to practice only weightlifting with no batting practice at all. The results would plummet. Therefore, we find that combining them optimally produces superior results to either in exclusion.

Ok then from a martial arts perspective when we want to increase our cardio and endurance in a fighting context we should practice generic cardio and endurance exercises. Then practice the activity. However the problem I see with that is that the practice of the activity, free sparring, is best done at low intensities to train in the combat specific skills. This won't necessarily create the stress needed to increase cardio performance specific to fighting. Also generic cardio exercises IME so far have difficulty replicating the type of full body exhaustion intense sparring can bring or a shuai jiao match.

Wouldn't this necessitate combining cardio endurance and our combat training on some level to generate the specificity in training for combat? For example doing bag work at as fast a pace as possible for 2 minutes with a 30 second rest then repeating. Or even sparring with as high a speed as possible to facilitate that specificity?

[Chris McKinley]

Deus,

Once again, your questioning kicks ass. In fact, I bet a few readers are wondering if I planted you in the thread as an old-time shill.

RE: "Ok then from a martial arts perspective when we want to increase our cardio and endurance in a fighting context we should practice generic cardio and endurance exercises. Then practice the activity.". Yep.

RE: "However the problem I see with that is that the practice of the activity, free sparring, is best done at low intensities to train in the combat specific skills. This won't necessarily create the stress needed to increase cardio performance specific to fighting.". Also yep.

RE: "Wouldn't this necessitate combining cardio endurance and our combat training on some level to generate the specificity in training for combat?". Bingo! This is what I'm referencing when I state that you need to incorporate the skills learned in isolation back into the skill set as a whole. To nutshell it: Isolate the crap out of it, make it as good as it can possibly be, then incorporate the crap out of it.

In fact, the examples you gave at the end of your post are quite literally things I've done before (among others). Keep thinking the way you are....you're onto something.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Deus,



In fact, the examples you gave at the end of your post are quite literally things I've done before (among others). Keep thinking the way you are....you're onto something.

Thank you, thats reassuring.

Back to the overtraining stuff.

If we separate our training for the ultimate goal of combat. We should then separate it at the very least into fitness training and combat training. We should likely further at the very least separate fitness into strength and cardio. So then we have 3 different things that we should train in isolation. Combat, strength, and cardio. If someone were to try to do each of these every day or even 6 days a week I would think that it would quickly become overtraining if any significant amount of time was done with each. It just wouldn't be adequate recovery time unless intesity was low or duration was very short.

To me this would necessitate a split reutine. So if we rest on sundays, we can do 2 days a week of each category. Or we can have 2 sessions a day IF we can separate them adquately with rest.

Would the integration aspect of training need to be trained in a separate session also or would it be best to train it in the combat session? I can see good reason to separate it but I can also see reasons why to incorporate it as part of either combat or the cardio. I am honestly not sure how strength would need any specific incorporation training though.

[Plante]

The integration aspect, I am thinking out loud, could be worked in a way as a non-professional long-distance runner (in no roder : 2 days eays runs, 2 days intense (speed, hills, etc.) and one long distance day, one day rest) where the integration is the long distance or in a periodization approach where the integration comes after cycles of isolations, per example training 4 weeks specific stuff then integration the following week then going back to another cycle of specifics...

[johnwang]

but you might consider phrasing it a bit differently than "X always takes Y amount of drills and Z amount of time". ...you have way too many total reps of everything.

That was my Chinglish problem. Thanks for pointing it out. For a while I thought you was joking (about 30 minutes).

In CMA, there are 2 different kind of ability training. Those ability that came with our birth (先天 Xian Tian) such as jab, hook, sweep, front kick, ... All we need is to enhance those abilities because our body are already used to those moves. The other ability that does not come from our birth (後天 Hou Tian), such as leg twist, leg lift, sprint, scoop, outer hook, spin back kick, flying side kick, ... In our daily life, our body just don't move like that. For those moves we will need a lot of reps in order to make it as part of our body. Since not every CMA styles train 後天 Hou Tian skill, that's why we may have this discussion here.

I try to achieve "muscle memory (no intend)" without my mind involved. One time I asked my teacher, "How many reps did you drill this solo forms?" He said, "Several hundreds." Comparing to what our previous generation did, 20 or 60 is hardly to be called "too many reps". But since I'm "maintaining" my ability and not "improving" my ability, 20 or 60 reps will be just fine for my age. If I were 40 years younger, I would repeat my hip throw, leg lift, ... at least 200 times daily. So for "too many total reps of everything", I have to disagree with you.