taijiquan--how do you measure proficiency?

[Bhassler]

I think we would have to broadly define proficiency in any martial art before we could narrowly define proficiency within a specific martial art. By definition proficiency within a specific art would have to also be proficient in the broad definition of martial art. Until we can do that this thread seems kind of pointless.

Pah! There's no place for your logic on the internet! Be gone!

[grzegorz]

I think we would have to broadly define proficiency in any martial art before we could narrowly define proficiency within a specific martial art. By definition proficiency within a specific art would have to also be proficient in the broad definition of martial art. Until we can do that this thread seems kind of pointless.

I don't think it's that complicated. If you can use your martial art for fighting/self-defense you are proficient in your style.

[daniel pfister]

In the Bagua system I practice, we don't use the term "hua" (化) but rather "xie"(卸). "Xie," as a verb, has an array of definitions, including to dismantle, cut into pieces, and unload. The idea is that you use "xie jin" to literally dismantle and unload the opponenet's force.

Thank you for bringing this up. Unfortunately the Chinese encoding is not working on my computer, so I am not entirely sure which "xie" you are talking about. Could you give me another definition? I have practiced Bagua, but am not entirely sure I've heard of this concept. Are you talking about when you would cut into an opponent's attack, dodging him and disrupting his structure at the same time? If so, Taiji does have a similar technique, but yes there would naturally be a greater emphasis on softness when doing it.

[3 planes]

If someone can fight well, or win at push hands it doesnt have to mean they have are proficient at tai chi. It can simply mean they are good at fighting and pushing.

If you are proficient at tai chi, it means that you understand it, you have got its signature energies, have integrated its principles, and you can USE it.

This is my own criteria for profiency:

1) you can clearly manifest the eight signature energies (ie. peng, liu, ji, an etc)
2) you can use opening and closing / yin and yang / softness and hardness
3) you can find and use these energies in all applications
4) you know all the applications and can use each application as a strike, throw & break, left side, right side, inside and outside.
5) you can touch someone and know where there balance is, and where they are moving to (ie good listening skills)
6) you can remain stuck to them until you decide not to be (ie good sticking skills)
7) you use skill not straining at all times
8) you flow seamlessly from application to application

To my way of thinking, if you aint got these, you aint got proficient at taichi

[DeusTrismegistus]

If someone can fight well, or win at push hands it doesnt have to mean they have are proficient at tai chi. It can simply mean they are good at fighting and pushing.

If you are proficient at tai chi, it means that you understand it, you have got its signature energies, have integrated its principles, and you can USE it.

This is my own criteria for profiency:

1) you can clearly manifest the eight signature energies (ie. peng, liu, ji, an etc)
2) you can use opening and closing / yin and yang / softness and hardness
3) you can find and use these energies in all applications
4) you know all the applications and can use each application as a strike, throw & break, left side, right side, inside and outside.
5) you can touch someone and know where there balance is, and where they are moving to (ie good listening skills)
6) you can remain stuck to them until you decide not to be (ie good sticking skills)
7) you use skill not straining at all times
8) you flow seamlessly from application to application

To my way of thinking, if you aint got these, you aint got proficient at taichi

I really think thats making things too complicated.

[grzegorz]

If someone can fight well, or win at push hands it doesnt have to mean they have are proficient at tai chi. It can simply mean they are good at fighting and pushing.

If you are proficient at tai chi, it means that you understand it, you have got its signature energies, have integrated its principles, and you can USE it.

This is my own criteria for profiency:

1) you can clearly manifest the eight signature energies (ie. peng, liu, ji, an etc)
2) you can use opening and closing / yin and yang / softness and hardness
3) you can find and use these energies in all applications
4) you know all the applications and can use each application as a strike, throw & break, left side, right side, inside and outside.
5) you can touch someone and know where there balance is, and where they are moving to (ie good listening skills)
6) you can remain stuck to them until you decide not to be (ie good sticking skills)
7) you use skill not straining at all times
8) you flow seamlessly from application to application

To my way of thinking, if you aint got these, you aint got proficient at taichi

The problem with that is some people can do those things and still not fight well.

I used to know a teacher with the same view and he produced very few fighters, which is fine. But how would you train someone to meet your criteria and deal with highly trained fighters?

[wiesiek]

one martial art style known by 1,000 different people is 1,000 different martial arts

very good ,
but
is it mean that you have to use 1000 different measurement?

You can use one kind of measurement, but you have to make each measurement... Muhammad Ali is great, so boxing is great... why then isn't every boxer great?

hehe

guitar looks nice and playing on it is great
lot of peoples play
why then...

picki`n up brusch and put it into the paint is easy
paintings are great
where all of those Leonardos gone?

so
really,
how we can measure proficency?
on internet it is "quest for holly Grail" and in addition very subjective

If you are looking for the best of the best there is no another way:
only competition may blow out the mist...

to stay on the ground and keeping thing realistic - as Grzegorz stated - if you can fight...
I would add:
this is level one
level two - if you are able to teach gained skillz

no more "levels" popin` up in my mind right now,
P.S.
there are possibilitys of "sublevels" in level one,
but
i hope that more versed in the art RSFers will fill the gap